quote:
Originally posted by ksarchet:
One of the first things I did when I didn't know if she was a real person was to do a Yahoo search on the name. I didn't mean to freak you out. sorry.
....now you are freaking me out even more; you did a search for the name out of boredom? ^^
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody:
Who says that math ... , and I believe I have a decent grasp on the subjective arguement.
Wow! You may be nobody, that was really something! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
And all that only in order to save a CD of TS!
I'm really impressed. Maybe, after this, I would simply look away, when her holyness ladyphoenix really choses to give you ... you know what I'm talking of, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Lamuness:
....now you are freaking me out even more; you did a search for the name out of boredom? ^^
Not boredom, interest. Just like your name. I had never heard of the Anime that your name comes from. So I did a search. I had no idea that this would freak you out. Internet searches are my favorite way to find things out, and learn that little extra about something.
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody:
Who says that math wouldn't work if you convinced people that 2+2=5.
I think I can actually prove this rigorously. (I have a math minor and I studied the foundations of the number system just enough to be able to construct the argument.)
The laws of arithmetic are based on the concept of numbers; this maps to reality almost directly.
Aside from implying that if I take two apples, and put two more apples with them, I would have five of them, this means that I can do the following:
2+2-4 = 5-4 = 1
2+2-4 = 4-4 = 0
So we have just proven that 1 = 0.
In other words, having none of something is exactly like having one of it. Then consider any arbitrary integer n:
n = 1 + 1 + 1 + ... + 1 (n times)
and now by substitution
n = 0 + 0 + 0 + ... + 0 (n times)
and we all know that 0 + 0 + 0 + ... is equal to zero. Thus we see that any arbitrary integer is equal to zero.
Thus, if 2 + 2 = 5, and the normal rules of arithmetic apply, then no matter how many things you have, you also have none of them.
Thus it is perfectly valid to say that the universe contains none of anything and is therefore empty.
Your math doesn’t make any sense.
The problem with proofs (and yes, I just studied proofs, I’m an engineer also with a math minor) is that to prove something is true, you need to prove it for all possible test cases. It is generally easy to show that a proof is not true simply by showing one false case.
We have the assumed implication that
if you take two apples, and add two more apples, you would have five of them.
Or P implies Q.
2 apples + 2 apples will imply 5 apples.
If this statement is true, then it’s contrapositive also needs to be true for the statement to be true:
in other words, ~Q → ~P
That means any other number that is not 5 apples will not be 2 + 2 apples.
However, from 2+2-4 = 4-4 = 0,
I can then show, that if I have 4 apples, it can imply 2+2 apples.
This is a number that is not 5 that DOES imply 2 + 2 apples.
That means the original hypothesis CANNOT be true because the orignal statement’s contrapositive isn’t true.
This means you cannot use the implication that 2 + 2 apples implies 5 in a proof to prove that 1 = 0. So by contradiction, I have shown why your proof doesn’t work.
So nothing you said was valid at all, because you gave an invalid assumption that couldn’t possibly be true.
You yourself contradicted your own math.
What is this now? A battle field for numbers??? If that’s the case, I will throw my salvo, too, then!
Nandemonai: I have a minor in math, too, but, it only looks good in paper. I once asked my math instructor (as later to my physics instructor instructor, later), to prove me that 1 + 1 = 2. And, no, you won’t be able to prove it, as, to begin with, it is not even in the books. All math has worked over that assumption, and we assume it is true.
Was your math professor a Discrete Mathematics professor?
I will attempt to prove that 1+1=2 with math induction. I didn’t invent this, some other crazy math whiz did.
The problem is, depending on how complex the number system assigned, the proof gets more complicated. That is why with real numbers it cannot be proven effectively.
You also have to assume that the addition procedure works the way it does, the proper way to prove the addition procedure would be to prove it equal to some other easily defined term (such as binary addition, an even simpler form of addition) and then show it equal in all cases, which I think is possible but is beyond my scope and knowledge of math. You asked me to prove 1 + 1 = 2, not the addition procedure so…
Anyways, Let us assume that 1+1=2, in the universe of discourse of all whole numbers, 1 to infinite is true.
To prove this right, I need to prove this for all possible cases. The problem is, there is an infinite number of possible cases where 1 thing gets added to one of another. The logical contrapositive equivalent is ~2= ~(1 + 1)
This is easier to prove, not by much, since it’s still infinite, but it can be done.
If any number but two will not be 1 + 1
Base Case:
1 = 1 + 0, which is not 1 + 1, check
3 = 1 + 1 + 1, which is not 1 + 1 check.
Let N be a number greater than 2 within the universe of discourse.
Let N’s base be the number 3
I’ve already shown the base case to be true,
so N = 1 + 1 + 1
So we know from the addition procedure that 3 = 1 + 1 + 1.
Now take the statement N + 1 = 1 + 1 + 1 + 1
If we subtract 1 from both sides we get N = 1 + 1 + 1, our base step.
In other words, If N is true, N + 1 is ALSO true. This is the inductive step.
Thus any whole number from 3 all the way to infinite will NOT be 1 + 1.
The contrapositive is always true, thus the statement 1 + 1 is always true.
Something like that. The whole proof would be some long drawn out thing…like this wasn’t drawn out enough.
Lamuness, you freaked out yet?
I just wanted to share the pain and suffering of studying proofs that I’ve been doing all week to the others.
quote:
Originally posted by scuddman:
Lamuness, you freaked out yet?
I just wanted to share the pain and suffering of studying proofs that I've been doing all week to the others.
Good now that you got your logic down pat,
read The hitchikers guide to the galaxy.
I'll take my proof in the pudding.
BTW can you now do 'apples' + 'oranges'?
All I get is fruit salid.
Also now is a good time to sacrfice that goat you have been keeping. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody:
And ... head. If you were able to follow what I was saying, I'll have to try harder next time. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
Then try again. I think, I'm thinking, therefore, I may exist... Why assume the own existence as a sure thing, anyway?
Oh, by the way, has the CD already reached state boundaries (if they and the CD actually exists, that is...)? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody:
*starts running around like a decapitated chicken*Ohmygodohmygodohmygod.... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/eek.gif[/img]
Tsssss.
How long would such a chicken run around?
And, of cause, if has to be " Ohmygoddessohmygoddessohmygoddess.... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/eek.gif[/img] "
[This message has been edited by Unicorn (edited 08-07-2002).]
quote:So, is still Kumiko-chan a bishoujo Goddess or not? ^_^
Originally posted by Nobody:
(...)
Well, I've done my best to mess with everyone's head. If you were able to follow what I was saying, I'll have to try harder next time. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by olf_le_fol:
So, is still Kumiko-chan a bishoujo Goddess or not? ^_^
Of cause, Kumiko-sama is still a bishoujo-goddess! Even if there are more heretics who would not commit themselves to this.
[This message has been edited by Unicorn (edited 08-07-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody:
That way, I'll be the Nugget Fairy and the Harbinger of Snacks to a bishoujo goddess. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
... and, of cause, this way it would be a lot easier to get a ... you know what, from your personal bishoujo-goddess...
No! I think, a dog disqualifies as a bishoujo-goddess. At least, I will definitely not believe in Peaches! What kinds of religious posts would she make?
Wooof-grrrr-waff? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by Nobody:
*cowers in corner and throws blanket over head*Noonecanseemenoonecanseemenoonecanseeme....
Hey, minna-san!
There's a trembling blanket in the corner.
Hmmm. *Takes blanket*
Strange, there was some movement before, but after I took it up, I see Nobody... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Unicorn (edited 08-07-2002).]
quote:
Originally posted by scuddman:
Your math doesn't make any sense ...
You yourself contradicted your own math.
You're missing my point. False implies anything in the world of mathematical logic; I'm simply saying that 2+2=5 is a false statement. Of course you will reach nonsense conclusions if you assume false things are true and then make inferences.
quote:
Originally posted by scuddman:
Your math doesn't make any sense.
Also I think you missed the original context of the discussion. We were discussing a particular plot premise for stories where what people believe _defines_ reality. I argued that this was dangerous and wouldn't work, and raised as an example "well, what if you convinced people that 2+2 = 5"? and came to the conclusion that if you actually did it, you would destroy the universe (which would become paradoxically defined).
I know, but you brought up math, and I’ve been studying it like crazy, and I hate it, and I want you to hate it, and hate it, and hate it…and hate it…and…and
I’m okay now. The exam is over.
quote:
Originally posted by scuddman:
I know, but you brought up math, and I've been studying it like crazy, and I hate it, and I want you to hate it, and hate it, and hate it...and hate it....and.....andI'm okay now. The exam is over.
[img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
My gripe with higer math and higher learning is that they often seem to be taught and developed from people who never lived in the real world. Take Einstein for example and relativity , he almost got it right.In 1930 a physical experiment sugested that his theory could have a flaw in the math
but rather than question the theory they just proposed a solution that does reqires more math and strange sub-atomic elements. Autodynamics for more details. http://www.autodynamics.org/ His E=MC^2 is the only part of theory that proved right with the new math.
Now back to your favorite B-Game ...
apologizes to the board for geeking out so terribly
Gomennasai!Gomennasai!Gomennasai!