S&M Case at the Supreme Court

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

I still haven’t figured out how a criminal case like this has gotten as far as it has, and exactly what implications it can have concerning S&M in general… if at all…

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/13/sco … index.html

Since whatever the Supreme Court rules on, pretty much hits everyone and everything in the country, this is worth watching to see what direction it takes.

I honestly don’t see it outlawing S&M or something that punishes people for wanting S&M fantasy porn (so long as it’s fantasy and no criminal action)… but you never freaking know. :expressionless:

EDIT
This was supposed to go in the English Bishoujo Game Discussions, since it pertains to the US. If a Mod could move it, thank you much. :slight_smile:

#2

The details seem pretty straightforward to me. I need to do more research … The legal issue seems to turn on the ex-post-facto clause (that is, they’re punishing him for activity that was ongoing, and when he started it, was legal - but didn’t end that way). But the facts seems clear enough: he was the worst kind of pimp, essentially, taking all the money and leaving her with no way out of the situation. That has nothing to do with free speech at all.

And really, I don’t see the first amendment issues being involved except tangentially. Which makes them unlikely to use this case as an opportunity to make drastic revisions to obscenity law. The Court does not like to make such far-reaching changes except where either they have to (because the situation is so messed up they have to clarify it) or the facts are clear and the issue is squarely presented.

Here, any ruling about the constitutionality of the works of “art” he was selling would inevitably be tainted and overshadowed by “did he enslave these women or not? Was it illegal at the time or not?”. So they’re not likely to decide this would be a good opportunity to rule on the issue.

#3

If Jodi’s testimony is true then I really don’t see the issue with this case. You don’t take unwilling women and physically or psychologically abuse them. Also, it seems he didn’t fully inform this woman about what the site was going to involve.

Now, there is a chance that she is lying and willfully allowed these actions and she is simply ashamed or trying to mitigate damage from this kind of image being spread of her. If that is the case, then the case should be dismissed.

I tend to believe the woman here. There are clearly women who enjoy or submit willingly to humiliation and some physical abuse. However, it seems rare that a woman would willingly allow herself to be carved up in any fashion. Maybe she is a woman like that, but I haven’t seen the images so I’ll side on the cautious side on this one.

#4

I don’t see how this could affect bishoujo games in any way. It’s one thing to play a game, read a story, or watch a film containing S&M themes, and of course, to actually consentually participate in it, but it’s another thing entirely to be roped into a contract where you literally get screwed because of it.

#5

This (potentially) involved real life abuse. I don’t really see how this has any reasonable connection to fictional media. The ex post facto thing should of course not be allowed–he should only be able to be charged under laws that existed when he committed the acts.

#6

This sounds quite similar to the cases where they’re marketing their images to people under the impression that real rape/non-consentual images are being offered. I’m not sure how this has any relevance with bishoujo games either.

#7

Because sadomasochism is a major style of sex, erotica and pornography; there’s S&M eroge. If nothing comes out of it except a criminal ruling, fantastic, I’m all for that.

But if anything rules about regulation of digital S&M distribution/production/management/etc… then that would easily encompass eroge.

Not everyone gets those clean high school pure love titles. Those who exclusively enjoy those types of eroge, probably don’t give a damn, but those of us who like the dark side would have an interest in this staying only a criminal case and nothing more. Again: if nothing happens. Great. But it doesn’t hurt to be aware of your surroundings (or in this case, what the Supreme Court is reviewing).

#8

The thing about it is, this case seems to revolve more around the issue of whether the affair was consentual or not (as well as if an ex-post facto enforcement of the trafficking act was justified), not whether certain types of S&M depictions are acceptable. Read between the lines a little–Notice how they don’t mention a word about “obscenity” in the article? Notice how the conviction is very specific in that it revolves around only one of the woman “sex slaves” instead of all of them? If S&M-style content is indeed deemed illegal in the case, then it’s very strange that the defendant isn’t getting convicted for the various other women depicted as “sex slaves” on his site as opposed to just one of them. This particular woman didn’t seem to know what she was getting herself into when she got the job, but couldn’t back out of it, so she pressed charges against her employer. The main issue of this case revolves around the treatment of one of their employees, not the overall type of content in which they host.

Remember, it may not seem so bad to be aware of your surroundings, but freaking out about the legal system every time a sex-related case pops up is the worst thing we could do. Chill out a little.

#9

I don’t know though. This country seems intent on throwing its 1st amendment in the toilet. I am amazed with each passing day on how troubling things have become. So worrying might not be an over-reaction.

#10

You know what happens when something gets us potentially worried? We don’t just stop at worrying, we tend to go as far as to assume that the sky is falling. If you continuously act like the sky is falling over everything, then you’re just going to end up convincing yourself that it’s all hopeless and completely out of your hands–If something really bad does happen, you’re then just going to let everything run over you, and others around you are going to begin feeling the same way.

You want to change your own society? Change your own fucking attitude first. Lay off the goddamn “depressive realism” crap for once–It’s only going to screw us all over if something bad really does happen, whether something gets censored or the government’s respect for free speech actually becomes severely compromised.

#11

Depressive realism… yes, watching this government write and pass bills that have the expressed purpose of limiting speech and worrying is over-reaction :roll:.

I don’t think all cases, which actually includes this one, have that much of an impact on speech. This case clearly seems more focused on mutilating an unwilling woman. However, seeing this in conjunction with other cases out there at this moment, I can understand the worry some people might have.

By the way, you are the one with the pissy attitude seeing as all you have done is come into this topic and moan about someone wondering about a case’s impact. The only over-reaction here was yours.

#12

What was I supposed to do? You think I enjoy seeing people here worrying all the time? I can’t just leave you guys moaning and whining about how everything is out to get you. Do you realize that your attitudes can also affect the decisions JAST makes? If we all blow a piece of news out of proportion, or kneejerk to everything related to sex, then that affects what JAST wants to do in the future–They may censor something or skip out on a really good title whose content might not be that big of a deal. That doesn’t work well in any of our interests.

And besides, what exactly do you plan on accomplishing by maintaining constant pessimism about society and the attitude that the government is always out to get you? Even if they were, the constant doom and gloom mentality will only serve to convince yourselves that you have no real control over yourself or the government/society, so you let them screw you over in the end. What good is that going to do for us?

#13

I’m an anarchist, so in the end I don’t care if I have control over the government. My life is mine and I’ll choose how to live it.

So I have not lost control over myself. The only reason I “worry” is that with a tyrannical government and an apathetic populace, I’ll have to maintain a tighter a vigil. Not that big of a deal in the end. I’ll still be free.

#14

If you’re going to choose to worry about the peoples’ apathy with regards to the actions of the government, but don’t bother to care about your own power over the government you have as a citizen yourself, then you’re already screwed. If the government does screw us over, you’ve only set yourself up to the supposed demise of freedom you keep worrying over–That’ll be a result of your own apathy.

If you don’t care about yourself, then don’t fucking worry about what everyone else does to you.

#15

You seemed to miss the point entirely. I am not worried about losing my freedom because freedom cannot be lost. It can only be surrendered. If society surrenders its freedom, that simply means that I will have to be a bit more careful and work a bit harder. So I “worry” only because not having to work as hard would be nice. I don’t need control over the government because I already have control over myself. That can never be stolen from me.

So, I clearly care about myself. I just don’t view my worth or freedom in terms of what someone else defines. You really need to make sure you understand the point before you make erroneus and quite foolish statements as that last post.

#16

Well I don’t know about what exactly you’re thinking at this moment, but if you constantly worry and act like everyone is out to get you, you’ll only convince yourself (and more importantly, others) in the end that you have no freedom to begin with or the government is relinquishing us of our rights. So stop giving off the pessimistic tone and making misleading posts that can give people the impression that you believe freedom can be lost to the government–People will make the same mistake about your position as I did, and they may end up inadvertently feeling that way.

#17

Only a few people are “out to get me”. That isn’t the issue. The government has shown signs of tyrannical desires and a lot of people seem content to surrender themselves to that control. So I worry that my life will get a little inconvenient.

Maybe I could have been clearer, but my point was always that society is willingly giving up its freedom and not “losing” it. I wish I could understand the ignorance and stupidity behind these people, but then maybe it is a good thing that such actions completely baffle me.

#18

Well contributing to the pessimism doesn’t exactly help things, either. Besides, the constant preoccupation with “what other people” think could be interpreted as your own lack of self-confidence/feeling of helplessness as an individual and as a citizen too. What good is that going to do?

#19

I’m just fascinated by odd and often self-destructive behaviour that society continually exhibits. If I truly cared what society thought, I wouldn’t be a metal head, or a fan of erotica, or have long hair… and I would also probably actually care about status, fame, wealth, and the insitutional dogma of religion or science.

#20

…

Not sure why this topic has suddenly become focused on personal attacks.