Thought I'd Raise Another Old Controversy

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Back when I posted another thread, there were a couple of topics listed that had apparently been gone over multiple times in the past, and one caught my eye because I couldn’t actually figure out what the controversy would be about. So I figured that I’d once again risk stirring the pot and ask…

What’s the deal about mosaics? It seems pretty straight forward to me–if you order a product straight from Japan, it’s going to have mosaics; if you order a product that has been converted for an English speaking audience, chances are that the mosaics have been removed (or, as in the case of Chain and Kana, there are patches to remove them).

The only controversy I can possibly see is whether removing mosaics is diminishing the “purist” aspect of the bishoujo game by not allowing the western audience to see it with the Japanese censorship intact.

Personally, I don’t care about mosaics one way or another–if the game has them, oh well. I prefer the artwork not to have them, only because I don’t like the fuzzy blotches spoiling the quality of a picture–but I understand why the Japanese put them there in the first place, and having played a couple of games that had mosaics, I didn’t find that it altered my enjoyment of the game any.

Then again, maybe I’m just weird. Someone feel free to enlighten me…

#2

On one of the boards that I was reading through back before joining this board, there was someone saying how if they left the mosaics intact, even with the scenes that get “mosaic” otherwise left intact, companies might be able to sell the games to a ‘younger’ crowd, that is 17 or even 16 and older.

Personally I am not sure that is part of this controversy, a whole other one or if it would even work out that way, since there are patches. As I remember their argument they were saying if they cover the “areas” they remove one of the major objections parents might have about these games being sold to 16 or 17 year olds. Thus they are able to bump the age of the people they can sell these games to back, or would it be up, a few years which in turn might greatly help the industry by increasing potential customers through clearly at least cover the parts these parents fear if seen by these youthes would surely ‘corrupt’ their minds with the strange idea of something called sex.

Yes part of this age restriction is sadly law, which they too hoped could be changed by the mosaics left untouched. On a side note I hope it is not the parents stopping these games from reaching at least 17 year olds since it is my hope there is not a parent out there naive enough to think their 16 or 17 year old does not know anything about sex.

Once again not sure if that is part of the controversy you had in mind, or if it is something I agree with, and lastly if it is something that would work since patches could be made and likely would be made to overcome the mosaics.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-21-2004).]

#3

As long as they bare breasts, they’re going to be considered too risque for the under-18 market. The consensus among the English b-game makers is that games with mosaics don’t sell. Hirameki seems to be out to disprove that theory, but the jury’s still out.

#4

Also for some games the original CG have been lost. All they have are the reduced-quality copies that ended up on the game discs. These cannot be uncensored. So occasionally it becomes an issue of “game X cannot be uncensored”. In the case of the US market this is basically a death knell right now.

#5

Well, I didn’t have any particular controversy in mind, since I wasn’t sure what the issue was in the first place I’m just so clueless most of the time that sometimes I just want to know…

I don’t know if leaving the mosaics in place would really encourage the distributors to lower the buying age to 17, though (although I suppose the argument is something to the effect of “the naughty bits are covered, so it only has an R-rating”). When MegaTech made their games, the “adult” versions (which in two cases were add-on disks which had to be ordered directly from the company) were only available to those who were 18 or older, yet only Cobra Mission had material that could arguably be called “adult,” and that was only for content, not the actual graphics.

I think that, given the strong sexual content of some of the games, distributors would still be reluctant to lower the age limit for the same reasons, what ever they were, that motivated MegaTech to keep everything as an “adult” rating. The same principle could be said to apply to games like Eve: burst error, where all the hentai was edited out, but the game is still marketed as an “adult” game (maybe for violence–although one sees just as bad at the movies).

And, as you mentioned, there’s always the possibility of mosaic removal patches–although I’m not sure that those would be garunteed… I kind of got the impression from reading elsewhere that some games actually required re-drawing the graphics in order to bypass the mosaics for English distribution. But I’m not an expert, so I don’t know…

Personally, I agree with you that our teenagers know far more about sex than our society wants to admit, but we like to put our fingers in our ears and shout, “LA-LA-LA!” in the hopes of making it not so…

#6

Forgive me for double-posting, but a couple of replies came up while I was writing my own…

quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
As long as they bare breasts, they’re going to be considered too risque for the under-18 market. The consensus among the English b-game makers is that games with mosaics don’t sell. Hirameki seems to be out to disprove that theory, but the jury’s still out.

I personally think it goes back to the movie thing… In an R-rated movie, you can see breasts, so why not in a game? As far as the mosaics go… well, like I said, I’d rather not have them, but it wouldn’t stop me from buying the game (I bought Casual Romance Club knowing full well that it would have mosaics).

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
Also for some games the original CG have been lost. All they have are the reduced-quality copies that ended up on the game discs. These cannot be uncensored. So occasionally it becomes an issue of “game X cannot be uncensored”. In the case of the US market this is basically a death knell right now.

I’m reading what you’re saying, but I’m not sure I’m understanding…

#7
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
I'm reading what you're saying, but I'm not sure I'm understanding...
The last time we had this discussion it was suggested that all that was needed to remove mosaics was to recover the original artwork done before the mosaics were added. Problem is the original artwork is often left unfinished or the archive materials are lost. So you end up having to commission new artwork for the uncensored release.

#8

Ah… then this is what someone was referring to when they were talking about “redrawing” the graphics in order to uncensor them. I take it, then, that what Nandemonai is saying is that the inability to uncensor a game due to the inaccessability of the original or archived material is a threat to the English market because it is assumed that the English games need to be without mosaics?

#9

Speaking for myself, releasing a game with mosaics undoubtedly would hurt the number of sales. Besides losing customers whose main interest lies in the sex scenes, mosaics may be viewed negatively by those who object to them on aesthetic grounds.

The cost for replacing artwork can be fairly high. I can think of several scenarios.

  • The original artwork was uncensored and is available. Best case; lowest cost.
  • The original artwork was censored, but is still available. Artist needs to erase lines and add details.
  • The original artwork was lost. Artist needs to completely redraw graphics. Probably need original artist to reproduce style.

Surprisingly, some game companies throw out the original artwork after the project is complete. [Why can’t they send it to me? ]

#10
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
Ah... then this is what someone was referring to when they were talking about "redrawing" the graphics in order to uncensor them. I take it, then, that what Nandemonai is saying is that the inability to uncensor a game due to the inaccessability of the original or archived material is a threat to the English market because it is assumed that the English games need to be without mosaics?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Only some titles, though. It's basically a crap shoot ... older titles especially. If a company doesn't think they're ever going to want to do anything with it ever again, they aren't likely to be as careful as they might otherwise be - and thus things can get lost over time.

Where I work we lost the source code to [censored] [censored] - uh, can't talk about it very much ... wouldn't be prudent ... but we did lose the source code to a system that at one time was quite important (production system across a 5-state area important) - the source was lost why? The system had been replaced, its replacement was being replaced, it kind of fell through the cracks.

This is another unfortunate consequence of the fact that the US market won't be mature for a good number of years yet. Companies right now are basically writing off the overseas markets. So if a game goes out of print, and there are no plans for a remake ... why would they keep the data lying around? It's not like the foreign market is on their minds at all...

So there are a lot of titles currently existing that are likely to simply never come out in English. By the time the market is big enough, materials may be lost; people may not be at the same company; the company may have folded (the US market has already been hit by this, in fact).

The good news is, games with strong storylines will continue to come out, and eventually we'll actually see more and more of them.

Note: there is a fair amount of pessimism in this post. I remain optimistic about the outlook for the US market, however, I think it's good to acknowledge the reality that we're not going to get everything we might want.

#11
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
Speaking for myself, releasing a game with mosaics undoubtedly would hurt the number of sales. Besides losing customers whose main interest lies in the sex scenes, mosaics may be viewed negatively by those who object to them on aesthetic grounds.

In the US, there are probably also those who object to censorship in any form and are offended morally by the idea that it needs to be censored.

Of course, a great many of the people who say this are REALLY interested in the sex scenes...

#12
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
As long as they bare breasts, they're going to be considered too risque for the under-18 market. The consensus among the English b-game makers is that games with mosaics don't sell. Hirameki seems to be out to disprove that theory, but the jury's still out.

Yeah and I know this goes with what is wished for more so then what is reality in trying not to show the breasts to "protect the children" if that is the reason. If it is though show me an 17 year old that has not seen breasts, be it through magazine pictures, movies, computer images, etc. and you have one that is probably tightly controlled by his mother.

These teenagers are old enough that they have seen breasts before or have been very sheltered to the point of what I would consider almost Draconian means since even if it is in school where someone shows a magazine by that age they have likely I would say 99% have seen breasts, to think otherwise is beyond naivety and pointless since you cannot shelter people from knowledge they already have, from things they have already seen.

So even if they did cover the naughty bits would they still keep the age restriction because these people don't realize this or because of the image they have to maintain of pretending not to realize this in order to appease mothers and fathers that are living in some dreamland if they think without these games their 17 year old will not see a woman's breasts until he turns 18.

Yeah that is cynical but if you cover the "naughty bits" then I really don't see why breasts would be that huge, no pun or double entente intended, of an issue with 17 year olds and perhaps not even most 16 year olds. There could be other issues but one should not be the fact you can clearly see her top half.

In general I am against the mosaics but if it helps the industry and there is still a way to get around them, yes defeats the point of them being there, but if it still somehow worked to help the industry and could be overcome, well ... not sure.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 07-21-2004).]

#13

Yes, I can see where the problems would lay… although I agree with perigee that it seems to be a shame to toss the original artwork when it would be so much more efficient to send it to me (and at least I’d be willing to negotiate with American companies for the rights to use the artwork in uncensoring their games ).

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
Of course, a great many of the people who say this are REALLY interested in the sex scenes…

Well…

quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
…mosaics may be viewed negatively by those who object to them on aesthetic grounds.

…that would be my only major complaint. Like I said before, if necessary, I’d live with the mosaics, especially if it meant we could get some of the otherwise unobtainable games ported over to English. It seems a shame to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as it were, by removing the chance of getting an otherwise excellent game simply because the artwork is no longer available to remove the original Japanese censorship.

I’m inclined to wonder how far it really would affect sales? Especially if it was known that it was impossible to uncensor the game… but I’m an eternal optimist…

It is for that reason that I’d like to hope that Japanese companies won’t continue to “write off” the overseas market forever, and eventually acknowledge that there is a credible base of sales to work with in some form or another. Maybe then, there might be a reason to better archive the artwork.

[This message has been edited by Wolfson (edited 07-21-2004).]

#14

Please, let me post my two cents too…

First of all, i think it’s a mistake to say Mosaics are the same than censorship. Mosaics is a thing, Censorship is another!

*When an adult game is mosaiced, all the sex and nude scenes are drawed with some kind of cover to the genital parts. They are still there, just redrawed to not show genitals.
*When an adult game is censored, all the sex and nude scenes are cut out, mosaiced or not. They are not there anymore.

I don’t think a bgame can be sold to someone bellow 18 y.o. just because is mosaiced. In Japan all the bgames are mosaiced, and still they are for 18 y.o. or older. But i agree many 16 or 17 y.o. guys nowadays know more about sex than we think, so i think it’s okay they can play some more light-themed bgames, like Renai or Junai bgames.

I don’t see why mosaics will turn down someone. I don’t have a problem with them.

To me demosaicing bgames will just delay the release more, maybe even to limit the number of japanese companies wishing to try release some of their products in our market.

Remember: to demosaic a bgame in many cases all the erotic CGs will need to be redrawed.

Just think: Who between us will be pleased to make again a work we did two up to ten years ago?
In some cases, the artist aprimored his/her art style. Now he/she needs to redraw again some previous work with his/her non-aprimored style?
In other cases, the artist is not working with the company anymore. And now they need to redraw some CGs made by that artist gone long time ago?
And we can’t to forget, in Japan they have dozens and dozens of new games each month. In other words, almost all the japanese companies has his own projects running. To redraw some old works, that means they will need to delay it’s own projects. So what they do? They will trown our order to redraw their old games in the bottom of the line of their own projects. More delay to us.

That’s why i think we need to learn to accept mosaiced games… until the time when japanese companies will release demosaiced bgames cames. So far, do exist some bgame companies who release games with seletionable mosaics.

But the problem we really have is: our industry of entertainment don’t accept bishoujo games - mosaiced or not - the way they accept violence-themed games. To them sex - softcore or hardcore - is wrong and dirty, but violence - even those with lots of blood, gore and tremendously disgusting deaths - is okay.

#15

Hmmm… I can see where removing the mosaics on a game would cause delays and present problems in tracking down artists and such.

Although, as far as censorship goes, there are many forms of censorship–the deletion of a scene is the extreme end. The “covering up” of the “naughty bits” (i.e. using “black outs” or “mosaics” or what ever) is still censorship.

But, the only people who are going to cry about mosaics are the people who really, really want to see those sex scenes in all their glory. And, sadly, they aren’t going to get used to the idea of mosaics any time soon.

On the other hand, those of us who play more for story content and entertainment value are more likely to be able to overlook them, although, like I said, I don’t enjoy them–but I can see your point on the problems they can create.

Your point on sex versus violence has been raised before, and I (and others here) agree with it… it’s stupid, but it’s the way our society has gestalted itself, as it were–too much Puritan religeous and Victorian societal input. The Japanese aren’t hampered by such restrictions, and have a slightly more relaxed attitude toward sex.

#16

Personally, I have much greater objections to attempts to alter the storyline by cutting and splicing scenes than I have to blocking out a character’s genitals in the images. To use a non-game example, the way that the editors extracted entire subplots from Cardcaptors (the English dub of Cardcaptor Sakura) annoys me greatly–it feels like the translators are attempting to exercise creative control over the product, something that I think should remain the perogative of the original copyright holders.

#17
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Gilis:
To me demosaicing bgames will just delay the release more, maybe even to limit the number of japanese companies wishing to try release some of their products in our market.

Remember: to demosaic a bgame in many cases all the erotic CGs will need to be redrawed.

Just think: Who between us will be pleased to make again a work we did two up to ten years ago?

In some cases, the artist aprimored his/her art style. Now he/she needs to redraw again some previous work with his/her non-aprimored style?

In other cases, the artist is not working with the company anymore. And now they need to redraw some CGs made by that artist gone long time ago?

And we can't to forget, in Japan they have dozens and dozens of new games each month. In other words, almost all the japanese companies has his own projects running. To redraw some old works, that means they will need to delay it's own projects. So what they do? They will trown our order to redraw their old games in the bottom of the line of their own projects. More delay to us.

That's why i think we need to learn to accept mosaiced games... until the time when japanese companies will release demosaiced bgames cames. So far, do exist some bgame companies who release games with seletionable mosaics.

Actually, very recently, I had asked the staff of G-Collections about this. All of their games don't have to be redrawn. They only have to swap out the mosaiced images in the games with the ORIGIAL ONES WHICH ARE UNCENSORED. In other words, the images ARE DRAWN UNCENSORED. (I mean, honestly, what artist is going to be drawing little blurry squares around the private parts?) The only effort expended is in finding where they are kept backed up on someone's computer. Usually, this is on some side folder along with the Japanese version of the game. Any coder worth their salt should be obsessive compulsive about keeping backups of everything. (ie: What if in putting the mosaic in, they covered up the ankle instead of something important?) I haven't a clue about if this is the same for Peach Princess, but I wouldn't be suprised if this is true for them also. Thus, we don't need to wait for demoasiced, because they already ARE demosaiced. If anything, the mosaics are delaying the game's inital release in Japan.

#18

If I’m understanding things correctly, that’s the ideal scenario. The problem seems to arrise when (heavens forbid) they actually can’t find that precious back-up of the original artwork for what ever reason… then, I gather, they have to go back to the original artist in order to redraw the picture. If (again, for what ever reason) the artist is unavailable, then things are pretty much screwed. Someone correct me if I’m wrong…

#19
quote:
Originally posted by Vaga42Bond:
Any coder worth their salt should be obsessive compulsive about keeping backups of everything.
The same thought occurred to me in a discussion we had last year while waiting for the XC2 release [see posts near middle of page]. Apparently, that's not standard practice for many Japanese game developers. [shakes head in disbelief]

If GC makes it a rule to only port games that have unmosaiced graphics available, that could explain why their turnaround time is better than PP and why they keep using the same providers. It was said in yet-another-mosaic-debate that the artwork in some of PP's older games was drawn Barbie Doll style, that is, not what you would call anatomically correct.

#20
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfson:
If I'm understanding things correctly, that's the ideal scenario. The problem seems to arrise when (heavens forbid) they actually can't find that precious back-up of the original artwork for what ever reason... then, I gather, they have to go back to the original artist in order to redraw the picture. If (again, for what ever reason) the artist is unavailable, then things are pretty much screwed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

Yeah, there are a few games where they lost the CG. In particular there were some parts of ... was it chain? that weren't uncensored even with the patch. (Although, G-collections changed their policy concerning uncensoring; I think you can't even buy the versions of the games without the patches now.)