Thoughts on V-Mate

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#1

Forgive me for coming late to the V-Mate discussion. Based on what I’ve seen, the system looks like it will be a good way to stop the bane of piracy and do one thing – raise the number of copies of each game we can sell to a higher number, which will make it much easier for us to hire staff and bring out better games at a faster pace. From what I’m told, the system has served well to block piracy of games in Japan, while not impacting most users in an unacceptible way. It has not been cracked by hackers in Japan yet.

Consider for a moment how bas the issue of piracy is to us, the people who put huge amounts of money on the line in the hopes that we’ll make it back. There are Yahoo and MSN groups with thousands of users, and all they do is trade info on warez. For every dedicated fan who collects these games, there are maybe 100 who download them for free. 100 is probably being charitable. Given this situation, if a reasonable middle-point could be found that would help the situation, shouldn’t we avail ourselves of it?

Re: the response to the new system by the Italian gaming community, I have to say, we have no distribution in Italy at all, save for one shop in Cassano, and whatever business Diamond does there for us (negligible, I’m sure). There is no major distribution from GC to my knowledge. We personally ship about 25 orders to Italy a month, less than half of which are game orders. This means that there may well be a vibrant, teeming community of dedicated bishoujo gaming fans who do not buy games, or contribute to the development of new games, but who only curse when their ability to download games is threatened by something like V-Mate. This is an interesting thought, one that I will have to reflect on.

The bishoujo game market is a tiny, tiny niche market, many times smaller than the smallest software market you could name. You know those companies that create software just for dentist offices? I’m reasonably sure they sell more copies of their products than we do. Software to run a video rental store? They sell more than us too. Thanks to several factors, including shops not wanting to carry adult material due to “family values” and online trading, it’s been incredibly hard for us to grow this market into something respectable. If – if! – this system will help G-C improve the market, without hosing loyal customers, and if it will enable them to bring the games out more cheaply, I am for it, at this point.

Of course, I have not gotten my copy of the game yet (sniff sniff, I’m in Japan so it takes longer), and so I can’t say for sure what the system is like. I will be installing my copy and judging then what to think of it. But to the people who have voiced objections about the system, I have to ask…wouldn’t it be better if there were more sales of all of these games, more people to enjoy them, and less pressure on the loyal fans on this BBS to decide whether each game was a hit or not? The “what if’s” that are being thrown out here – what if I want to play the game in the bathtub, but I don’t have Internet in there – are probably not an issue for most people, so long as the system works as promised, doesn’t go down, and doesn’t cause frustration with fans.

For myself, as someone who is very passionate about these games and very appreciative of the support of all fans, I will guarantee that any V-Mate game will work to your satisfaction, or I’ll join you in banging on G-C’s door to fix the problem. So I ask that you have faith at this point and see how the system checks out.

(The game is posted on the PeaPri site now too, for those who were waiting.)

#2
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:
The "what if's" that are being thrown out here -- what if I want to play the game in the bathtub, but I don't have Internet in there -- are probably not an issue for most people, so long as the system works as promised, doesn't go down, and doesn't cause frustration with fans.
The desire to play games offline is not as silly as wanting to play them "in the bathtub". It is a big problem for folks like me who often enjoy b-games as a form of entertainment away from home. You might as well say that we shouldn't care about reading a novel on the plane or watching a movie in our hotel room. It's annoying to be told that one's main concern is "probably not an issue for most people".

I absolutely agree with the need to fight piracy. I'm tired of having to pay a premium to subsidize the downloaders. However, if the cure makes it impossible to enjoy playing games when and where we choose, it may discourage existing customers rather than attract new ones.

Thanks for your thoughts concerning the V-Mate controversy. I look forward to reading a FAQ that explains the details of usage and hopefully suggests a workaround to enable offline play.

#3

I am sorry Peter, but I have to disagree with you that V-Mate is a good system. It limits customers who can play the game to those who have internet access at home, limits the number of times a person can upgrade there computer,and or install or uninstall the game. I am sorry but as of right now G-Collections has lost me as a customer for now. I dislike spyware and to me this is what V-Mate sounds like.

#4

Im very against the invasion of privacy thing… nothing bothers me more in life however… i started to think about it, ive played alot of MMORPG’s in the last year, and its no differnt than them adding a patch scanning the game every single time it boots up. If this solution will help keep the industry afloat im all for it… and if it doesnt help… whats the worst they are going to do take it off?

Basically im just saying, give it a try, if only for 1-2 games if you dont like it THEN quit buying the product, but dont knock it till ya try it… i should get the new G-collection game in a few days, ill post the vmate system review with my mini ghetto game review.

[This message has been edited by Gambit (edited 10-28-2004).]

#5

I’,m not disputing the fact that we need to do something about the pirates, and i have no problems that the game needs a internet connection every time it starts (unlike Italicus i have T1 connection so i’m up 24/7 ).
But i have some issues with this hardware check that the game does. I’m not going to buy a game that stops working 2-3 years from now, even if they cut prices by 10 dollars.

quote:

The bishoujo game market is a tiny, tiny niche market

Yes but if its such a tiny market why don’t they just answer our questions and they will be able to sell this game to alot more people then they do right now. The news blackout they imposed isnt going to help GC to sell any more games and get the market any bigger thats the facts right now!
Or i’m a wrong?? well maybe… only time will tell

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 10-28-2004).]

#6

I don’t think the hardware check is such a major problem. I’m sure there’s a way to upgrade your computer and still have your games work, in the worst case scenario contacting G-Collections should work.

#7
quote:

in the worst case scenario contacting G-Collections should work

Or they could just answer our questions right here and now and i would't have to contact them at all [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
#8
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
...in the worst case scenario contacting G-Collections should work.

I don't want to start another argument here, but...

Here's a quote from the Q&A session with "G-collections.com" (while G-collections.com was still answering questions):

Dark Shiki: "If we upgrade our computer, how will G-collections deal with the resulting disfunction with unexpired V-mate games?"

G-collections.com: "..."

Somehow their response doesn't inspire confidence. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-28-2004).]

#9
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
in the worst case scenario contacting G-Collections should work.
Yes we all know how very responsive they have been to e-mails, and other forms of voicing our concerns so far. Truth told when the system is in place and working why should they care to make such a small change.

Piracy is a major problem yes, but even if this system works to stop piracy does not mean it is th best choice or one that should be openly embraced, nor does something that doesn't seem to bother most players truly only bother a few players, such as lack of internet connection.

Anyway most of what else I would say has been said, so I'll just second the various views within this thread of Thomas, perigee, Dark_Shiki and DragonLord.

Only thing I will add is a system like this tells me that the company wants to expand the market (obviously) but will do so by stabbing in the back some of those customers that were loyal to them through the lean years. In short the company is saying "hey you were wonderful customers, but now that we have this potential for a whole bunch of new ones, who needs you". Just my opinion based on lack of clarification, and what is known about this system that is already affecting some customers.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-28-2004).]

#10
quote:

The bishoujo game market is a tiny, tiny niche market, many times smaller than the smallest software market you could name.

And you realise you're saying this RIGHT IN FRONT OF another software developer whose market is a LOT smaller than YOURS is. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I haven't made 12 sales to Italy in my entire business, much less in a month. You KNOW this.

Now, it's not a completely fair comparison, as it is taking more money to produce/translate/print/distribute a bishoujo game than most of the games in the indie/download field. Which is also why your prices are 2-3 times our game prices.

But DON'T tell me you have to do these things just because the market is so small. Believe you me, I know smaller markets. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Wanting to play the game I have paid for when I want to play it is not an unreasonable demand. And the time I am *most* inclined to play a bishoujo game is WHEN MY CONNECTION IS BROKEN so that I can't WORK. I am a software developer working out of my bedroom, I am almost constantly doing something related to my jobs, even if that something is just research.

Now, since we are getting some official reply... have we got an official confirmation on that "turns itself off after a year" thing or haven't we?

#11

Well, that’s my two cents :

Many people here are arguing against VMate because or they have just a dial-up I.C. (Internet Connection), or they don’t have any.

All and every game - bishoujo or not - has “Minimun Requeriments” you need to have in order to play any game in your PC. An Internet Connection is not all that unusual. Many customers nowadays have it. And there’s no law stating all the Bishoujo Games must to be off-line all the time.

If you don’t have or don’t want to use I.C., well, G-Col will release a patch to registered custommers who will let you play any VM-Bgame off-line. Now all we need to do is convince them to release the patch soon.

As for the time spent on Internet, according all the info so far, VM-Bgames don’t need to be on-line all the time to you play. Just time enough to confirm the registration. Let’s say: 5-15 seconds.

How much time you spend playing a Bgame? Half hour? One hour? Two? More? Even with a dial-up connection, you just need 5-15 seconds to activate and start/load a game. I don’t think that’s too much.

Some guys are saying “what if my Internet Connection is down? I couldn’t to play any VM-Bgame!”
Awwwww, come on! Don’t be so pessimist in suppose your I.C. will be down just EVERY TIME you intent to play a VM-VGame, not even for 5 seconds!

If does, well, or you have the worst luck in the world, or you have the worst InterNet Service Supplier in the world!! Change it right away! (and buy some rabbitt’s foots, just in case)

Many guys here are arguing “what if G-Collections close their doors in the future?”. That’s exactly what V-Mate intents to avoid!!

If the piracy keeps going on, probably G-Col will not have profit enough to keep their business, being forced to close. With this system, MAYBE the piracy stop or decrease enough to G-Col raise their sales and keep their businness going on.
Heck, maybe they can increase their sales enough to think in bring more and more bgames, even those from big companies like ELF, JANIS or F&C!!

And even if they really close their doors in the future, what makes you think they will not create or indicate a site with all the VM-patches to download?

In Japan, many Bishoujo game companies like for instance CS’Ware (what let my hopes to see their other games like Vist, Heart & Blade, Luv Wave and the remaining from EVE series translated equal to zero!) closed their doors, but even so you still can find the patches to their games.

I don’t think VM is like a spyware harming our rights. On the contrary, it’s more like an Anti-virus protecting us from the plague of the piracy.

If the piracy keep harming the Bishoujo Game industry outside Japan, one day we will have no more BGames translated. So in a way VM is protecting our rights as legal customers who want more BGames.

Besides, once installed in our PCs, VM will just ask us to confirm our identity as legal customers. We are making such thing all the time during our life.

To no one except you enter in your car, you lock your car with an electronic alarm. Later, you can press the swift button and voila, the alarm is off. You can enter in your car.
To no one except you enter in your house, you lock the doors and windows. Later, you use your key and voila, you can enter in your house.
To no one except you use your personal account in the Bank, it’s protect by a password. Later, you will use it. And so go on.

And not just us. G-Col has the right to protect their products too. Everyone has the right to protect what legally belongs to him from shameless thieves, burglars and robbers.

All in all, i think that’s a small price for us to pay to have more and more bgames in the future.

#12
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:
This means that there may well be a vibrant, teeming community of dedicated bishoujo gaming fans who do not buy games, or contribute to the development of new games, but who only curse when their ability to download games is threatened by something like V-Mate. This is an interesting thought, one that I will have to reflect on.

To my knowledge, this is a sad truth, although I must say (a due defense) that Italian b-gamers are chronically afflicted with high taxes/Customs tariffs, shameful vendors (typical price for an English b-game: 70 Euro!) and criminal organizations that duplicate every type of "gadget" (not only b-games).
However, I don't have seen calls to honesty anywhere, and I'm convinced that only strong measures (like V-Mate, IF can defeat -or drastically limit- piracy) are the answer to my dreams (relatively economical European or American versions of THE BEST Japanese erogames).

#13
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:
[V-mate]has not been cracked by hackers in Japan yet.

We heard that similar systems were cracked in 2 weeks. Maybe our source (probably Italicus) was wrong, though.

quote:
For every dedicated fan who collects these games, there are maybe 100 who download them for free. 100 is probably being charitable.

I'm not sure what you mean by "dedicated fan," but if you don't mind me asking...where are these numbers coming from? 1 fan for every 100 pirates? That's quite a disconcerting statement, if true. Approximately what percentage of sales would come from "dedicated fans?" If by dedicated fan, you mean us, then you're saying that about 50%-75% of distributed "copies" of B-games are pirated, which seems like a more realistic (or perhaps less misleading) statement.

quote:
But to the people who have voiced objections about the system, I have to ask...wouldn't it be better if there were more sales of all of these games, more people to enjoy them, and less pressure on the loyal fans on this BBS to decide whether each game was a hit or not?

That would be great. However, I don't think the implementation of V-mate as it is now will lead to more sales, more customers, etc. I think the system, even modified to the expectations of us anti-Vmaters, will lead to less sales. Why? Just look at all the flames Valve is taking for implementing simple online activation with Half-Life 2. U.S. customers are simply not comfortable with "phone home-type" deals at this point. If customers are well-informed about the details of V-mate, I'm certain that V-mate will fail. GC's only hope for good sales, IMO, is that the full story of V-mate doesn't reach the majority of its customers. Who knows--perhaps that's why they've been so shush-shush about it.

quote:
The "what if's" that are being thrown out here -- what if I want to play the game in the bathtub, but I don't have Internet in there -- are probably not an issue for most people, so long as the system works as promised, doesn't go down, and doesn't cause frustration with fans.

How about this "what if"--what if I want to sell my game? For many that question isn't a "what if." It's a "when." And GC is making it virtually impossible to do. You have to give away your username/password to sell a game? What does that have to do with anti-piracy? It sounds to me like they're trying to strong-arm their way to more sales--and I don't like that one bit.

You could counter that by pointing out that a patch will be released a year after release, according to J-list and Peach Princess. Most people wouldn't want to sell a game before a year had passed anyway. However...GC retracted this statement! "A year after the end of sales" is not "a year after release" by any stretch of the imagination. Even if the patch was released a year after release, I would still feel unrightfully restricted by this infringement of what I consider to be my lawful property rights.

The upgrade argument has already been pointed out, so I won't repeat it again. However, it's hardly "not an issue." The "what if GC goes under" argument is also a major concern of almost everybody here, and once again GC has retracted the timely patch idea, which would have rectified this issue. And given GC's recent record of excellent customer service...I somehow doubt that they'd do something so magnanimous as releasing patches when they're going out of business. Because you know what? If GC continues along their current path, ignoring their customers...then they will go out of business. In that light, the concern is once again hardly a "what if."

I'm all for reducing piracy. But this system is not only badly designed...it's oppressive. I refuse to stand behind it, and I refuse to buy GC games until they take measureable steps to fix the system's many flaws.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-28-2004).]

#14
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:

Re: the response to the new system by the Italian gaming community, I have to say, we have no distribution in Italy at all, save for one shop in Cassano, and whatever business Diamond does there for us (negligible, I'm sure). There is no major distribution from GC to my knowledge. We personally ship about 25 orders to Italy a month, less than half of which are game orders. This means that there may well be a vibrant, teeming community of dedicated bishoujo gaming fans who do not buy games, or contribute to the development of new games, but who only curse when their ability to download games is threatened by something like V-Mate. This is an interesting thought, one that I will have to reflect on.

(The game is posted on the PeaPri site now too, for those who were waiting.)

Watch your mouth, Peter. I bought my games and paid for them.

Only a few of the 45 people i convinced not to buy G-Coll newest title were italians, so your words are pretty insultive to the whole italian gaming community.
BTW PLZ note weeeelllll that because of what Baldo stated many of us buy outside of Italy.


[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 10-28-2004).]

#15
quote:
All and every game - bishoujo or not - has "Minimun Requeriments" you need to have in order to play any game in your PC. An Internet Connection is not all that unusual. Many customers nowadays have it. And there's no law stating all the Bishoujo Games must to be off-line all the time.

If you don't have or don't want to use I.C., well, G-Col will release a patch to registered custommers who will let you play any VM-Bgame off-line. Now all we need to do is convince them to release the patch soon.

To cover these two points only in an attempt to show a problem. There is a difference between saying you must have so much memory, a certain speed CD drive or a DVD-Rom drive (these things do not restrict WHERE and perhaps WHEN you can play a game) and saying you have to have an internet connection. The is a fallacious argument to use the minium requirements because this is one that can easily restrict a persons actions in playing the game a lot more then any of the other minium requirements. Also no there is no law saying that just because I paid money for it I should be able to use an offline game whenever I want without going online you are quite right.

As to that second point we don't actually know that G-collections will release a patch or not, they have said two things on the patch and have been silent since. It is possible they will come back now and say 'no patch'.

That is also some of my problems with this, patches can be delayed for a long time if released at all, and this ludicrous argument of 'Minimum Requirements' better not be what is used to justify such actions in the future since they make for a fallacious argument.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-28-2004).]

#16

@ Peter Gillis

For every phone or internet call, we have to pay a minimum everytime we start on ( 10 cents or so). Multiply it for everytime we play.
So now tell me where’s the convenience?

#17

@ Dark_Shiki

I confirm. If Peter say this hasn’t still happened, then it means they did it well, LOL!!!

Oh mymymy ROTFLMAO!!!

[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 10-28-2004).]

#18
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Gilis:
All and every game - bishoujo or not - has "Minimun Requeriments" you need to have in order to play any game in your PC. An Internet Connection is not all that unusual. Many customers nowadays have it. And there's no law stating all the Bishoujo Games must to be off-line all the time.

The difference between this issue and "minimum requirements" is quite simple. "Minimum requirements" are just that--basic system requirements that you need to physically render the game. Forcing people to have an internet connection for a single player game doesn't constitute a "minimum reqirement"--it's a restriction. It's a restriction that personally doesn't bother me overly much, at least by itself, but it's a restriction nonetheless.

@Italicus: I'm glad to hear that my post had some...comedic value???

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-28-2004).]

#19
quote:
But to the people who have voiced objections about the system, I have to ask...wouldn't it be better if there were more sales of all of these games, more people to enjoy them, and less pressure on the loyal fans on this BBS to decide whether each game was a hit or not?
Actually in my opinion this is a toss up as I would like to see the market grow but not in this method. Yet to offer a counter point on more the loyal fans on this BBS versus more people buying games...

When markets grow in size they tend to become mainstreamed. In the case of this market that could easily mean these games will begin to look the same, all of them look the same, so having more fans could simply mean a lot more of the same games over and over and over again. With this small group of loyal fans there is at least some amount a variety, which could be lost if the market grows and things become mainstreamed.

There is also no guarantee that with the increased profits the "good" games people have longed for will be brought over, chances are increased, but at least to me it's not worth the risk without a promise of at least some "good" games to be brought over and even then it might not be worth the actual implementation. Assumption here is of course that one of the things you implicitly refer to with more sales is the chance at these types of "longed for" good games will perhaps start to come over more frequently.

My gut says you are better off with a small group of loyal followers then doing something like this and risking alienation of them and gaining a much larger group of fickle fans that would perhaps demand perfection or at the very least likely would not have stood for even justifiable delays in games such as LMM (and a larger market share does not mean such delays could not still happen) you have people here that are small but loyal and understanding, at least from my view let us shoulder the pressure rather then going to a system like this one.

Let me ask a counter point, is it better to have a group of small but loyal fans that (provided you don't try something like V-Mate) will be with your company until it's future success or demise, and will just laugh off and be understanding about delays such as those with LMM, or is it better to have a lot more fans that come and go, might not like the LMM situation and leave because of that and who also perhaps place you in a situtation where you would long to have that small group of loyal fans that left your company when they felt betrayed by something like "V-Mate"?

quote:
The "what if's" that are being thrown out here -- what if I want to play the game in the bathtub, but I don't have Internet in there -- are probably not an issue for most people, so long as the system works as promised, doesn't go down, and doesn't cause frustration with fans.
I wonder if they said the same thing about the Titanic, 'ah so long as we don't strike and ice berg in the middle of the Atlantic, the "what if" we start to sink and need more lifeboats should not be a major issue for most people.'

Your "so long as" list is a major one and nothing you can take for granted, and are questions that have to be asked unless you are willing to promise when implimenting a system such as this that it will 'never' go down, that it will'work as promised' and that it will 'not cause frustration for people'. If you can make such a promise (and it's impossible too because you cannot be sure of any of those things happening or not happening) then dismiss them, but until you can make such a promise most of the "what if's" you so quickly dismissed are valid.

Keep in mind too if G-Collections had not so far dismissed all of our "what if's" they might still have a larger cadre of loyal fans.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-28-2004).]

#20

You’re right.