Thoughts on V-Mate

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#101
quote:
Originally posted by Lamuness:
for gc sales, even if we know we are not in a position to reveal it to you guys, especially when it's gc sales and not our own games...
See that's another problem right now all of us have to take on faith that G-Collections is doing poorly but for all we know they are doing well enough to stay afloat for a long time, perhaps breaking-even each time and I don't expect them to open their books, just be more open. I don't expect another company to always reveal such things by opening the books of another company, but perhaps saying they seem to be doing well or poorly is something that could happen, but doubtful it will happen. Okay, then let me ask a way that might be able to be told.

Does it seem from rumor, not fact but rumor, word on the street which is not hidden but perhaps better heard by different people, does it seem from such word of mouth, that a lot are buying the game or that most are like the vocal members here and mostly against it?

quote:
all we are trying to say is that we dont want to immediately condemn vmate's system, at least not yet. it's never a good idea to trash anything fully because while it may be a bad idea to use for one purpose it may prove to be beneficial for some other things, and that's why we are leaving our options open.
I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time think if you want to leave your opitions fully open you don't stand with or against V-Mate, stay fully neutral in this turkey shoot, as it were, and recommending that people not fully trash it sounds more like standing in favor then neutral in my opinion.

I also think there is enough evidence to draw several conclusions (noted below) about this system which might prove enough to show how satisfied the customer is with it, and unless you know something you will not/cannot tell us, there is little evidence sales for G-Collection have benefited from this system or that pirates have in fact been stopped and have not already cracked the system or increased in their numbers as a result of the system.

quote:
(...) we are just trying to stay open, avoid any condemning comments, and most importantly, observe carefully and not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Observe carefully okay, so far here are my careful observations:
1)it limits where and when people can play to a point, especially those without internet access or in areas of remote internet access
2) it to a point monitors when and how frequently people play as such it is also a form of spyware since it can log when people play the games not to mention the type of game they often play, ones with cat-girls, shrine maidens, etc.
3) it restricts resales and as such perhaps greater market exposure of the industry
4) it basically comes off more like a 40 dollar rental game then one purchased if you look at this very carefully and read between the lines through careful observation
5) it has yet to be proven uncrackable and once again if rumors are true it is already cracked
6)you have a lot of people ready to boycott a company if they try such a system and so far there seems to be little proof that anyone holds(or admits to) which shows that loss of those that will boycott is minor compared to the gain of customers and stopping of pirates

Anyone notice anything I might have missed?

I just don't like this system for many reasons but some of the more major ones are there is just about something it feels very instinctually wrong and perhaps more importantly there is something about it that analytically just keeps coming across as wrong and also coming across as being far more then it seems on the surface and far more then merely an attempt to stop pirates. It is also true I don't stand alone in such feelings and on that note I agree with Thomas, it is some of your own customers that are the guinea pigs for G-Collections and this system.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 11-03-2004).]

#102
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Does it seem from rumor, not fact but rumor, word on the street which is not hidden but perhaps better heard by different people, does it seem from such word of mouth, that a lot are buying the game or that most are like the vocal members here and mostly against it?

Actually, PP can get a good estimation of how GC is doing by looking at their own sales of GC products. If PP sales of GC games goes down, then the result can probably be generalized to overall sales. Like I've said before, I wouldn't jump to conclusions with sales figures just yet because of the potential "lag" involved in consumers becoming aware of V-mate.

quote:
I understand where you are coming from, but at the same time think if you want to leave your opitions fully open you don't stand with or against V-Mate, stay fully neutral in this turkey shoot, as it were, and recommending that people not fully trash it sounds more like standing in favor then neutral in my opinion.

You basically seem to be telling Peter and Lamuness to "butt out" as it were, and I hate to see someone here say this. I for one want to hear their honest opinion, not some sort of corporate double-talk or outright silence like GC's been pulling lately.

quote:
it to a point monitors when and how frequently people play as such it is also a form of spyware since it can log when people play the games not to mention the type of game they often play, ones with cat-girls, shrine maidens, etc.

This is starting to border on paranoia. As someone already pointed out (I think it was Ecchifan), GC has the credit card number of many of its customers, for crying out loud. If they wanted to, they could log which customers buy which games and get much of the same information as they could from V-mate. Actually, many companies like ebay already do this--where do you think those recommended items come from? The privacy statement says that the information is not used for marketing purposes, so I choose to believe them until actual evidence has proven otherwise.

And no, my position on the matter hasn't changed. I'm just contrary by nature. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 11-03-2004).]

#103

that a lot are buying the game or that most are like the vocal members here and mostly against it?

not sure if we are in a position to say this either, but i think peter has answered this earlier (prolly on this thread) saying that “sales are looking good” or something like that (for the first few days of initial sale). while it’s a bit too broad for an answer but i’m afraid that’s the closest thing you can get out of our mouths in terms of sales.

and dark_shiki, i dont think we can reveal those figures either (gc sales from peapri’s site)

>I understand in more seriousness where you are coming from, but at the same time think if you want to leave your opitions fully open you don’t stand with or against V-Mate, stay fully neutral in this turkey shoot, as it were, and recommending that people not fully trash it sounds more like standing in favor the neutral in my opinion.

personally i dont think i have stated a single thing about whether i am in favor or against vmate (may have slipped, but i doubt it because i have been very careful with what i write in my posts). and yes, quoting you, we are asking people not to FULLY trash it. everybody, myself and peter (and vaga) included, has their own issues and opinions on this system, but “fully” trashing it is just a bit too one-sided.

as for your observations, many of them can be overcome if gc releases a patch, but that is more about gc’s response and planning. and many people have stated that they will live with it as a compromise if a patch will be definitively be released. just a personal observation, but based on the posts i have read, while there are people here who are against the system itself, i think there are more people who are more pissed about gc’s lack of response and indecisiveness than vmate.

i personally believe that (in a perfect world) business should be an act of compromise; both sides (vendor and consumer) have to give in somehow. it will be indeed unfair if one side just takes advantage of the other overwhelmingly (whether it’s vendoer’s side or consumer’s side).

as for why i said we want to stay open, you have actually said it yourself in your (edited) post :stuck_out_tongue:

as for the guinea pig thing, i was more commenting on the “implementation” of the system as a anti-piracy tool then you guys, while it’s true that in some ways you too are the guinea pigs, i think in some ways that’s how business run. look at how mmorpgs like ro was free before it was commercialized and start charging people money. those people who played the beta are pretty much guinea pigs too right? commercial samples like those scented perfume ads in women’s magazines, those too are using the readers as guinea pigs. enterpreneurs are guinea pigs too, from the vendor side. look at peter with his jlist business. well obviously you have to do your homework and research if you want to be successful.

i am not saying in any way that gc should be let go/off the hook for this just because it’s their first time with this system and using you guys as guinea pigs; they do need to make a compromise for this system (through a patch or some other method) if they want to keep their customers happy. however, looking at the consumers side, i have said weeks ago that you guys should wait till the game comes out, try it in practice/reality and if you feel it’s just as crappy as you said then go ahead and bitch all you want. to quote from peter, “If you don’t like it, send an email to GC about it and don’t buy any further games.” i think making your conclusions/opinions based on actual experience is more convincing than just bare talk. if you believe it’s still not even worth the try (for whatever reasons) then it’s up to you.

dark_shiki, it will be very difficult to hear our “honest opinion” given that we are actually selling the game on our site too. we want to stay as neutral as possible but it will be totally stupid for us to say “we are selling this vmate game on our site but it sucks so dont buy it” and we are not as pathetic to say “this new system is awesome” as a mindless sales pitch either.

there’s alot to digest from scdawg’s post, so hopefully i am making sense here.

[This message has been edited by Lamuness (edited 11-03-2004).]

#104
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Gilis:
No. Probably that was not a Virus. They installed Win95 as the OS for the entire ship. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

HEY! I have Windows 95, and IT ROCKS!
So back off!
#105
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
You basically seem to be telling Peter and Lamuness to "butt out" as it were, and I hate to see someone here say this. I for one want to hear their honest opinion, not some sort of corporate double-talk or outright silence like GC's been pulling lately.
But they are not giving an actual opinion, that is saying "It sucks" or "Hey I've tried it and like it", what they are saying is be open-minded and wait and see, which is not the individual talking to us but the corporation talking to us. I don't want silence but an open opinion which they will never give such as "we tired it and think G-Collections made a huge mistake" will never come from them, they might hate it if they try it but that too is doubtful to be said. Tragically perhaps only Bill Gates is in a position to trash another companies system and way of doing things he does not like and be able to get away with it.

I am also not saying "butt-out" I am merely saying or trying to say waiting and seeing could lead to this being widespread, speaking out might not stop it, but waiting and seeing, which is not the same as being open-minded in my book, could be seen as implicit approval of people and that they starting to like this system and will accept it elsewhere.

quote:
This is starting to border on paranoia. As someone already pointed out (I think it was Ecchifan), GC has the credit card number of many of its customers, for crying out loud. If they wanted to, they could log which customers buy which games and get much of the same information as they could from V-mate. Actually, many companies like ebay already do this--where do you think those recommended items come from? The privacy statement says that the information is not used for marketing purposes, so I choose to believe them until actual evidence has proven otherwise.
The problem is if I am right I still seem paranoid and it is not until I am proven right that people will say "Oh geez we didn't see this coming". There is also different types of marketing, there is targeting you for sales and there is seeing that 6 out of 10 people like shrine maidens and then selling mostly shrine maiden games, that is not technically using it for marketing purposes so far as targeting an individual but at the same time it is using it for marketing purposes.

Yes but other companies actually do the work for themselves to a point and don't have you logon to play something you bought from them to track this stuff, possibly track this stuff.

Oh yes there are the credit cards but this is much easier and perhaps a little more legal since in theory you volunteer to give them the information of the game you are playing and freely give them how often you play and the types of games you play all in one centeral computer bank. With the credit cards they have to look up multiple orders, with this one id and password, much easier. Maybe it is paranoia, but I say again it is the paranoid cynic that allows the naive optimist to be a naive optimist.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 11-03-2004).]

#106
quote:
Originally posted by Lamuness:
as for your observations, many of them can be overcome if gc releases a patch, but that is more about gc's response and planning. and many people have stated that they will live with it as a compromise if a patch will be definitively be released. just a personal observation, but based on the posts i have read, while there are people here who are against the system itself, i think there are more people who are more pissed about gc's lack of response and indecisiveness than vmate.
Yes but if they release the patch that ends the need for the system it does not eliminate the problems with the system I noted should others decided to use this system.


quote:
i personally believe that (in a perfect world) business should be an act of compromise; both sides (vendor and consumer) have to give in somehow. it will be indeed unfair if one side just takes advantage of the other overwhelmingly (whether it's vendoer's side or consumer's side).
The problem with a compromise is both sides could end up feeling screwed, the business because they might have to settle for something that leaves 1% piracy and the consumer for having to deal with a system like V-Mate.

As to saying that I guessed why you are staying open minded I assume you do have information you cannot/will not tell us, and if that is being the case and you are still open minded I can further infer that it is good news about that system in one way or another (most likely not about a decrease in piracy since piracy is harder to track this early on I imagine), which could also be seen as bad news to those against the system. No response is expected to this statement.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 11-03-2004).]

#107

scdawg, we, as a company that resells gc games, cannot bash the products we sell (whether it’s other people’s products or our own) whether we like the game or not because that’s just poor and illogical business ethics. i know it’s biased but there’s nothing we can do on our end. even if we dont sell their games i dont think it’s still very ethical for us to bash it anyways. this is not politics afterall.

if you interpret “wait and see” as implicit approval then i’ve got nothing more to say; i cant really change how you think. like i said, we have no plans of using vmate, and given some ethical issues on staying as neutral as we can (despite what scdawg may feel personally), we cannot comment anymore on our end in terms of whether peapri will use vmate or a similar system beyond that “we have no plans of using vmate” phrase.

#108

I understand but I also think there comes a time when a business has to take a stand and say “Well they are our competitors, and we sell (resell) their games but they suck and here’s why”. No it is not fully logical but in a way to me one company selling a competitor’s products is not logical either, it’s like XYZ gas company selling ABC gas at their XYZ stations.

If more businesses were concerned with ethics we would not need laws governing businesses, which is not saying one should violate ethics so much as it is to say I think they mostly exist on paper and in the minds of a very few people.

Also a good compromise as my understanding goes involves putting all the cards each side has on the table which shows why neither side will go beyond a certain point then finding middle ground between those points.

I don’t find it so much as tacit approval saying “wait and see” so much as I find it as an expected (for lack of a better phrase) cop-out for fear of angering a rival company.

I would also hope that if there are some plans or serious thoughts for plans they would be announced very far in advance rather then doing what G-Collections did, and while I don’t think PP would have done such a thing in the past, this system has enough vocal outcry against it, notice, if any plans ever do exist, they might be given with more notice then GC gave it but still short notice.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 11-03-2004).]

#109
quote:
Originally posted by Lamuness:

and dark_shiki, i dont think we can reveal those figures either (gc sales from peapri's site)...

...dark_shiki, it will be very difficult to hear our "honest opinion" given that we are actually selling the game on our site too. we want to stay as neutral as possible but it will be totally stupid for us to say "we are selling this vmate game on our site but it sucks so dont buy it" and we are not as pathetic to say "this new system is awesome" as a mindless sales pitch either.

Well I realize you can't give us actual sales figures. But you can give us your overall interpretation as Peter did before. The important thing is that you guys DO have sales figures, so you'll know for yourselves whether V-mate was a success or not. When V-mate games don't sell well, then that will end any dreams of incorporating it in your games, I'd hope. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Okay, maybe "honest opinion" was a bad choice of wording. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Let me rephrase that. I'm glad you guys actually take the time to respond to our concerns here even when they don't directly concern Peach Princess. Even if it's not your "honest opinion," it's a lot better than the silent treatment GC is giving us. Whatever you guys call it though, it seems like Peter at least is letting some degree of personal judgment slip into his posts. I have noticed that you, on the other hand, have been pretty tight-lipped. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 11-03-2004).]

#110

No it is not fully logical but in a way to me one company selling a competitor’s products is not logical either.

i dont know why peapri is selling their games nor do i care (its not really my department anyways), but nevertheless given the situation i must act accordingly (by avoiding to bash gc in the public), even if i am just an errand boy.

for compromises, i am just saying it as if it’s “in a perfect world”. i doubt in reality there will be “good” or perfect compromises (just look at politics) where people actually put their cards on the table, but if it’s an “acceptable” compromise people will usually just live with it. humans are selfish in nature afterall, if it benefits themselves enough that will be sufficient for a deal.

>cop-out for fear of angering a rival company.

well, if we have an issue with vmate, and if they approach us and ask us of our opinions we will tell them what we think. we just feel it’s inappropriate to bash it in the public like the rest of you guys (you guys are the consumers afterall). on the other side of the spectrum, we can very well be just plain damn evil and keep quiet and watch gc fall apart and laugh at them. However, since we are nice people we wont do that.

if you really want to know, given our reseller relationship, we were actually asked by gc for our opinions on the system, and we did tell them our thoughts (privately via email of course). so there, we did our job at expressing our thoughts to them directly, and whether they will take our thoughts in consideration is their own matter. obviously, we are not obliged to reveal what we said during that conversation. :stuck_out_tongue: but the important thing is, we expressed out thoughts already (on their request) and there’s no need for us to repeat ourselves by posting on the BBS along with the rest of you guys when we have expressed ourselves already.

and fear not, if we have any announcements we will say them at the appropriate time but never too late (other than release dates :P)

[This message has been edited by Lamuness (edited 11-03-2004).]

#111
quote:
Originally posted by Lamuness:
if you really want to know, given our reseller relationship, we were actually asked by gc for our opinions on the system, and we did tell them our thoughts (privately via email of course). so there, we did our job at expressing our thoughts to them directly, and whether they will take our considerations is their own matter. obviously, we are not obliged to reveal what we said during that conversation. :P

Might I be so bold as to ask when this discourse took place? If it took place before LMMW went on sale, Peach Princess was obviously misinformed on the workings of V-mate, if what you guys initially posted on the store page was any indication. Hell, I still think GC doesn't really understand how their own system works...

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 11-03-2004).]

#112

I realized that my post was unlikely to be read by many of those who bought the game (since they have largely abandoned this thread). So I’m reposting my questions as a new topic V-Mate Questions.

[This message has been edited by perigee (edited 11-03-2004).]

#113

i dont think i am in a position to reveal when the email took place; i was a bit bold (or generous to you guys) to say that we have small talks with gc on this matter in the first place :stuck_out_tongue: however, when gathering my thoughts on the system, i did the homework/research myself by reading DO’s japanese page on the system and see how the japanese “network connection version” of the games relates to gc’s system.

as for the store page info, we only write whatever information we are given or told.

as for why i am so tight-lipped, i know this is a very senstive matter to discuss, it’s the same reason why vaga is also tight-lipped. in addition, being trained in architecture, i am also trained to be a semi-lawyer and be careful what to say for liability issues (or, to cover my ass). the reason why i have decided to mention the email matter with gc is to refute one of scdawg’s many attacks regarding the cop-out for fear of angering a rival company. even though i joked about vaga being a gc spy and call them competitors, and both companies work totally differently and independently, we actually have a pretty decent relationship with gc…otherwise we wouldn’t be selling their games for them if we hate them so much, right?

but despite our relationship with gc, i personally have to draw the line and not help them too much with things. afterall, peapri is the one who pays me not gc…if i have done or have said anything for gc (doubt it), it’s merely done on an act of good will (and being a nice guy :P).

#114
quote:
Originally posted by Lamuness:
for compromises, i am just saying it as if it's "in a perfect world". i doubt in reality there will be "good" or perfect compromises (just look at politics) where people actually put their cards on the table, but if it's an "acceptable" compromise people will usually just live with it.

There are no perfect compromises. If a compromise is perfect, then everybody's happy and it's not a compromise.

In the case of VMate I think we've been over all of this already, so I'll just say I'm not buying any GC title until I buy MdNN and I'm not buying MdNN until this sorts itself out (either a definitive 'patch to be available MM/DD/YY' or '...retreeeeat! MdNN no longer using VMate!').

#115

Interlex maintains the database, but I’m not sure what the deal is that GC has worked out with them. GC might not pay for the actual bandwidth usage, in which case the point is moot. I also doubt that the bandwidth usage by V-mate would be significant compared to the costs of simply maintaining their website, as establishing a simple connection without pages to load wouldn’t require much bandwidth at all.

#116

I find the notion that VM increases sales to be ludicrous. Only the lower price will sell more games and, as I’ve noted before, lowering the price:
- has nothing to do with VM.
- will make it much harder to determine how effective VM was in preventing piracy.

To say you’re lowering the price because you have a dubious anti-piracy system up is but pure folly. The system costs you money, thus raising the price of your products would be the normal option. Seen that nothing else changed (production methods/costs), by lowering the price of your products you’re either stating just how big your profit margin was in the first place or you’re trying to fool us by saying you’re reducing the price of something that wasn’t going to be more expensive anyway (after all, you didn’t first announce the game without VM at $50 and then announced it with VM at $40, or did you?). Or there’s a third option which is you’re not afraid of commiting financial suicide over a false belief that the majority of people who download b-games do so because they desperatly need the games, to the point of spending money on them if they can’t get them for free. If so, it’s time to realize most are underage and have little money and will to spend on your games.

VM should have one purpose and one purpose alone. Providing extra QUALITY content. The adage “You’ll get more bees with honey than with vinegar” should be your mantra.

#117


Hey guys! I can be wrong, but it seems was not G-Collections’ decision to put VMate on their next games at all, as many of us suspected.

I was taking a look at the BGames from most of the companies from CD-Bros Group, and guess what? Almost all the new Bgames need on-line registration to play; KANNA - OKAERI and the sequel to KAZOKU KEIKAKU included.
The registration On-line for these Bgames can be found here:

http://www.play-gate.com/us_site/index.html

Maybe that’s the japanese version to Virtua Mate?

Even the old bgames have on-line registration now, like for instance DO YOU LIKE HORNY BUNNIES from Zyx. The funny thing is, you can buy your license to download the bgame and play directly in your PC too. Check here:

http://www.bb5.jp/

So, unless G-Col find a company with just off-line games willing to let their bgames to be translated and distributed overseas, they don’t have other choice except release VM-BGames from CD-BROS too.

#118
quote:
Originally posted by Counter Arts:
How much money is V-mate going to cost to maintain that database?

After big sales are done (mostly) for a game... how will the system be funded? Probably by other games right? I'm thinking that now GC would need a long string of games to release to keep this running.

This could mean more games comes out faster because of the pressure to sell more to maintain the system. Now the quality of the games I'm not so sure of.

I'm not going to be worried about patches at all. If they ditch the system then they would pretty much release the patch for the games as well. Probably would be the same for games that they aren't making money off of anymore so they can make that database a little bit more lighter or MAYBE put less of a load on it. (Actually... I'm not so sure about making the database space smaller)

That's an excellent question. If Interlex and GC are separate companies (i.e. not owned by the same entity), then we can safely assume GC is paying for VM services under a service contract. I don't know how the contract is structured, but we could take some guesses on it--per game, per user, per user access, a preset period of time. Or a mixture based on these factors. Unless you have this information, you dont really know what the fixed cost for GC would be. If the cost is fixed (i.e. per title), then GC would have incentive to create additional sales somehow (i.e. through the $10 price drop) to lower the cost of VM per sale of the game (lower VM cost per game means more net profit per sale for GC). The cost structure for this contract would also be a factor in how soon GC would release a patch for the game.

So I wouldn't necessarily think GC has to churn out future titles more quickly in order to pay for VM (particularly if the contract is based on per game title). But it's a definite possibility.

[This message has been edited by Ecchifan (edited 11-04-2004).]

#119

I suspect that V-Mate and the database manager are all part of the same service. A company would never buy one without the other. As such, it was part of GC’s We spent a lot of money, time and effort for this.

It’s like purchasing a grave site, if you’ll pardon the analogy. The cemetary factors the cost of perpetual care into the package so they don’t have to collect additional funds after tenants take residence.

#120

I grew up in a family of lawyers and know there are more ways to play CYA then being silent or nearly silent and sit in fear of libel suits.

Once again to a point I understand why one company might want to be silent on this issue but to another I think it would send a much better message to those that put this system in if a bulk of those that sell their games come out publically and either speak for it or against such a system. If those that sell their games are against it well they might see it clearer then simply having customers against it which they will wait as long as possible to admit to by looking only at profit margins and not truly caring if they lose old customers so long as they gain more new ones.

Yes it’s a risk to make any statement that might anger a company allowing games to be translated in this small market, but at the same time I still say this market needs to take a lot more risks if it wants to grow and establish itself as worthy of overseas attention and worthy of positive national attention.

That then leads to a major problem with not voicing an opinion that is personal not a standard corporation opinion. This problem is in that the corporation will often say nothing for or against just a standard statement that means nothing, which thereby is very often seen by the other corporation as the company implicitly stating agreement with the decisions made even if they don’t in truth agree on a personal level.

That’s a problem with being neutral that I did not see earlier on, those that are neutral might not stand for an issue, but their lack of action against it can be seen as support for it far more often then their lack of action for it is seen as support against it.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 11-04-2004).]