If they were clever (which I don’t think they are ) they would, after this furor, announce the New and Better v-mate system… Taking any individual restriction off would then make the angry people feel like they had been listened to and stop being so angry. Making it only require a connection at install, or removing the resale prevention aspect… would leave them with a piracy prevention scheme that while it would have gotten complaints if launched on its own, would now suddenly get lots fewer complaints because we would be happy that they had listened to us and compromised with us.
Heh. The whole thing about having to logon every time I want to play is what kills it for me. If it was a one-time thing, that’d be fine since I can actually do that without too much of a problem. The resale thing doesn’t bother me because I don’t sell these things after I’ve already bought them anyways.
As it is now, the hassle far outweighs the benefits of playing the games, especially knowing the usual caliber of G-collections’s releases. --
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:
Just throwing out ideas. My point is that while the people on this board tend to be thoughtful, loyal fans, 99% are clearly not. The concept of denying them free access to our hard work is an excellent idea, as far as I’m concerned, all things being equal.
True. Out of the 3-4 people I know IRL who play these games, SuperDeadite is the only one who actually buys them. The rest use their fancy broadband connections to pirate them. --
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:
Just throwing out ideas. My point is that while the people on this board tend to be thoughtful, loyal fans, 99% are clearly not. The concept of denying them free access to our hard work is an excellent idea, as far as I'm concerned, all things being equal.
Well. First, let's assume something reasonable. We'll assume VMate works, for awhile. Then it's cracked. What then? Does the crack for one game work for all games, or can it easily be made to do so? If that's true VMate's finished. If it's not true then VMate is viable.
To see whether this is true we need to wait.
Also VMate will cost money, and you are going to reduce prices of your products.
Also you are annoying / alienating customers. Some paying customers don't have net access at home and can't get it. Others object on principle.
In short, Peter, I think you're mistaken about one key thing here. All other things are not equal. Don't just look at the one aspect of VMate here.
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Payne:
I'll come right out and say it...I continue to wonder if all the Italian fans who are so upset by Vmate are buying their games in the first place. While I love Italy and think it's a great country, we have about 600 customers in our database out of more than 100,000. Is it possible, I wonder, that Vmate would force players who just download games to actually buy the games? Even if the people here are really against the concept of Vmate, I wonder if it'd be possible to sell, say, 150 copies of a game in Italy thanks to Vmate instead of (just guessing here), 50 copies or less, the rest of which are all pirated by the very passionate "Italian bishoujo gaming community" that is to upset about Vmate?
[img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I don't think i gave them false bucks when i purchased their games. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
One thing I can promise, if G-Collections should go out of business, is that I’ll put the full “faith and trust” of J-List behind making sure they do right by their customers in all ways. So hopefully no one will ever need to worry about having games they can’t play.
Some good news: despite objections to V-Mate by many here, sales of their latest game have been excellent. Of course, part of that is no doubt due to the lower cost, and another might be the theme (maybe cat girls are big in the world right now). If the system generates more sales for them in the long run and frustrates pirates, well, it’s not all bad, is what I’m saying. Clearly, they’re not going to disable it at this point.
If V-mate really did objectively improve sales AND profits (something that can only be determined over the long run), then I could stomach it…in principle at least. IF. I want the English b-game industry to do well, after all. However, I’m still frustrated that they included a fixed computer limit (this isn’t necessary for the anti-piracy function), and I’m infuriated that they included these resale restrictions, which are like a slap in the face.
Let’s assume the “worst” for the moment…GC’s V-mate system is very successful, tripling sales and doubling profits. Seeing its success, Peach Princess decides to use V-mate as well. I would hope that Peach Princess would make an effort to improve the current system, and minimize V-mate’s negative side-effects while still retaining the core anti-piracy function. All I’m asking for is something like the de-registration idea proposed earlier. If something like that were implemented, I’d be satisfied. Unfortunately, GC is either unwilling or unable to reach a compromise with its customers, and thus we have the current situation.
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 11-23-2004).]
I agree with Dark Shiki. Being against piracy is fine. Not letting the game run on more than one computer, or not letting you deregister the product is too restrictive. I mean, what if I don’t really like a game and I just want to give it away to someone. There’s all these strings attached. They don’t stop piracy, they just put too many restrictions on the customer. If peapri used this system, I would hope for it to be more of a single-edged sword instead of the double-edged one that GC likes.
quote:
Originally posted by bishounen_blue:
Being against piracy is fine. Not letting the game run on more than one computer, or not letting you deregister the product is too restrictive. I mean, what if I don't really like a game and I just want to give it away to someone. There's all these strings attached. They don't stop piracy, they just put too many restrictions on the customer. If peapri used this system, I would hope for it to be more of a single-edged sword instead of the double-edged one that GC likes.
Right. But there's a point you haven't outlined. That: so many customers, enraged with V-Mate, moved to support pirates...
[img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] I know Peter don't believe all of them are customers, and maybe he's 60% right, but what for the remaining percentual rate? Isn't it dangerous to move customers this way? My two eurocents on the matter.
Of course, this is not my case - i placed a big gravestone over G-Coll - but that's what i've seen on many irc chats that Hentai Dragon pointed to me... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
An issue regarding their sales. As they said, this was a testbed. Before singing victory over these filthy pirates,
a) let's wait for piracy moves - and they are moving... Those guys are a lot persistent. I missed their last call on the Net, so at this point i'm clueless about their plans, sorry. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
b) let's see for their future titles' sales because:
b1) there's still the possibilty of a backlash from unsatisfied customers;
b2) as Peter missed to hint, there's no sure point they are not going to raise their prices in the future if point b1 might happen.
b3) more and more people are asking for quality games, and are growing unsatisfied by their last ones - i didn't purchase CSMT2 and IG, ie...
[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 11-23-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
Right. But there's a point you haven't outlined. That: so many customers, enraged with V-Mate, moved to support pirates...
[img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] I know Peter don't believe all of them are customers, and maybe he's 60% right, but what for the remaining percentual rate? Isn't it dangerous to move customers this way? My two eurocents on the matter.Of course, this is not my case - i placed a big gravestone over G-Coll - but that's what i've seen on many irc chats that Hentai Dragon pointed to me... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
An issue regarding their sales. As they said, this was a testbed. Before singing victory over these filthy pirates,a) let's wait for piracy moves - and they are moving... Those guys are a lot persistent. I missed their last call on the Net, so at this point i'm clueless about their plans, sorry. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]
b) let's see for their future titles' sales because:
b1) there's still the possibilty of a backlash from unsatisfied customers;
b2) as Peter missed to hint, there's no sure point they are not going to raise their prices in the future if point b1 might happen.
b3) more and more people are asking for quality games, and are growing unsatisfied by their last ones - i didn't purchase CSMT2 and IG, ie...
Finally, a halfway intelligent post from you on the matter. I agree with points a and b1. b2 and b3, however, have nothing to do with V-mate. In fact, I'd almost welcome a raise in prices back to $50, because then we'd get a clear picture of V-mate's true effect on sales, rather than the ambiguous situation we have now, where good sales might be the result of either lower prices or reduced piracy (or some combination of both).
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 11-23-2004).]
I don’t have anything really new to add, but let me reiterate my Thoughts on V-Mate.
My opposition is based on selfish interests. Since the system was first announced, every indication has been that it provides for online gaming only. Anyone who wants to play a VM game without the Internet - away from home, e.g. - is SOL. Unfortunately, that’s my preferred time for playing.
Later reports lead me to believe it may be possible to disconnect after authentication and still play, save and restore. That’s at least a little encouraging. It’s still not a great solution. If Windows crashes, you have to change CD’s, or some other circumstance arises, you’re once again SOL. But it does give some hope and if there’s confirmation, I may once again be able to do business with G-Collections.
Much of the hostility directed toward GC is the result of their failure to communicate fully and in good faith. They gave the impression of trying to slip this one by us, hoping that no one would ask hard questions. Elements of V-Mate such as the limited installation and resale provisions seem more related to forced sales than antipiracy. GC’s silence on such matters only strengthens that impression. They refuse to answer or even acknowledge direct questions, increasing our frustration level.
If PeaPri decides to adopt Virtual-Mate or a similar system in the future, I hope it will address such issues more openly. Instead of treating loyal customers like sheep or pirates, give us some respect. We understand that it’s sometimes necessary to make unpopular decisions for business reasons, but don’t communicate by means of deception and then feign deafness when serious questions are raised.
V-Mate is looking more like a future standard for the industry. I’ve seen no reports of it’s being successfully cracked. Just a lot of braggadocio [there’s a good English word for you, Italicus ] about “how easy it will be” and “how foolish they are”. Without speculating too deeply on how V-Mate works, I think there must be more to it than simple authentication. It may entail a protocol that will prove equally impenetrable for future releases.
quote:
Much of the hostility directed toward GC is the result of their failure to communicate fully and in good faith. They gave the impression of trying to slip this one by us, hoping that no one would ask hard questions. Elements of V-Mate such as the limited installation and resale provisions seem more related to forced sales than antipiracy. GC's silence on such matters only strengthens that impression. They refuse to answer or even acknowledge direct questions, increasing our frustration level.
Hear hear!!
Maybe they think like this
http://www.despair.com/ap24x30prin.html
Maybe they should think aboute this instead
http://www.despair.com/disservice.html
[img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 11-23-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
In fact, I'd almost welcome a raise in prices back to $50, because then we'd get a clear picture of V-mate's true effect on sales, rather than the ambiguous situation we have now, where good sales might be the result of either lower prices or reduced piracy (or some combination of both).
The old tactic of lowering prices to engolden the pill for the customers... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
@ Perigee
Let's wait, i said, this pipinaro ( a good italian word for you, Perigee [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] ). After all, nothing is impossible.
I think i understood how the encode works, anyway, and this without see the game( do not ask me, no technical discussion here! ). And if i did, someone else may have do the same.
[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 11-23-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
V-Mate is looking more like a future standard for the industry. I've seen no reports of it's being successfully cracked. Just a lot of braggadocio [there's a good English word for you, [b]Italicus [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]] about "how easy it will be" and "how foolish they are". Without speculating too deeply on how V-Mate works, I think there must be more to it than simple authentication. It may entail a protocol that will prove equally impenetrable for future releases.[/b]
I will readily admit to underestimating the skill and quality of the VMate system. It hasn't been cracked yet that I know of. That says something about it. I had thought they were going to be easily defeated, because that is the fate of a lot of other DRM systems. Remember the DRM you could defeat on CDs with a magic marker?
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
Later reports lead me to believe it may be possible to disconnect after authentication and still play, save and restore. That's at least a little encouraging. It's still not a great solution. If Windows crashes, you have to change CD's, or some other circumstance arises, you're once again SOL. But it does give some hope and if there's confirmation, I may once again be able to do business with G-Collections.
Read Ecchifan's comments here:
http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002044-3.html
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
I will readily admit to underestimating the skill and quality of the VMate system. It hasn't been cracked yet that I know of. That says something about it. I had thought they were going to be easily defeated, because that is the fate of a lot of other DRM systems. Remember the DRM you could defeat on CDs with a magic marker?
I recall hearing before on this board that the pirates pirating these games are low-profile ones. Certainly not up to the level of the pirates that cracked Half Life 2's system.
Well I can think of some ways that might work to bypass it but I’m too lazy to put effort into it, especially since my internet connection is always on at home
More updates on the ongoing halflife story (I don’t play the game; I’m not into shooters. I’m just following developments on slashdot.)
Apparently they’ve now set it up to permanently disable your $60 game and ban you from the system for several years if you attempt to use a no-CD crack on the game you paid for.
Lovely.
That’s… not right at all. o_o
I smell a lawsuit on the horizon, that I do…
Wow…they’re resorting to some extreme measures. They even took the Steam forums down, it seems. But yes…there’s sure to be some sort of lawsuit if Valve sticks with this decision.
A lawsuit because they are actually doing something about greedy people who pirate the game?
Now THAT’s wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
Apparently they've now set it up to permanently disable your $60 game and ban you from the system for several years if you attempt to use a no-CD crack on the game you paid for.
If there's a lawsuit, that'll be what it's about.
I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty pissed if I was prevented from using something that I spent that much money for.
I dont' really see using a crack or whatever as piracy, providing that you already bought the original item.