Thoughts on V-Mate

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#161
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
A lawsuit because they are actually doing something about greedy people who pirate the game?
Now THAT's wrong.


Yes, but what if you're one of the people that used a no-cd crack due to CD read problems caused by the Securom protection, among other things? That sort of thing happened to people here with Brave Soul, if I remember correctly. How would you feel if you were then banned permanently and without warning from their server, preventing you from playing the game you bought, or any game they release in the future?

I'm not saying that using a no-cd crack is the best course of action to take in this sort of situation, but I'm sure plenty of people saw it as a quick and simple solution, and did it nonetheless. Is this fair to them? At the very least, can you see that the extreme measure Valve has taken is controversial? Or are you that completely certain that Valve has the absolute moral right in the matter?

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 11-23-2004).]

#162
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
A lawsuit because they are actually doing something about greedy people who pirate the game?

Now THAT's wrong.

No-CD cracks may be suspect but are not necessarily wholly illegitimate.

A lawsuit probably isn't going to get anywhere, but it's not a good idea to cut people off and ask questions later.

Disabling the accounts of pirates isn't anything I care about. That's the risk you run. No, the problem I have is simply that disabling the accounts of paying customers merely for patching the game is bullshit. Patching the game is always your right as a consumer. If you want to patch the game, that's your business. This usually voids your warranty, but they literally can't block you from running patches; it's your right.

Multiplayer is different, because it isn't just affecting you anymore. You have no right to cheat in multiplayer.

A far better way for Valve to handle this would be to detect who was using the no-CD crack, and email them, giving them, say, 48 hours to prove they own the game legitimately. Cutting people off who probably are pirates, but may not be is ... Unwise. However, I can understand Valve's position here: they are attempting to curtail the use of pirate's tools (this is the same reasoning used to ban burglar's tools).

(Actually, more like a week, or something, given it's near Thanksgiving people may be on vacation. Something like "48 hours from the next time you start the game" would be ideal.)

[This message has been edited by Nandemonai (edited 11-23-2004).]

#163
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
A lawsuit probably isn't going to get anywhere, but it's not a good idea to cut people off and ask questions later.

Yeah, you're probably right, come to think of it. But waves of negative public opinion can be just as damaging, if not more so, than an actual lawsuit.

I agree. People should at least be given the chance to prove that they are indeed legitimate buyers before Valve just cuts them off.

#164
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
A lawsuit because they are actually doing something about greedy people who pirate the game?

Now THAT's wrong.

You never know about lawsuits, sometimes the stupidest people win. Say the lady spilling McDonald's coffee on herself, or the guy sueing the person that ran over his hand while he was trying to steal his hubcap...or my favorite, the lady putting her RV on cruise control while going 70 and going into the back to get coffee, and crashed cuz she thought it was like autopilot. Idiocy does seem to run rampant...considering all the people and thier cases I've stated won it...

#165
quote:
Originally posted by Endymion:
or my favorite, the lady putting her RV on cruise control while going 70 and going into the back to get coffee, and crashed cuz she thought it was like autopilot.

That one sounds urban legendy. I very much doubt this is real.

See, it even has an entry on an Urban Legends reference page!

http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

#166
quote:
Originally posted by Endymion:
You never know about lawsuits, sometimes the stupidest people win. Say the lady spilling McDonald's coffee on herself, or the guy sueing the person that ran over his hand while he was trying to steal his hubcap...or my favorite, the lady putting her RV on cruise control while going 70 and going into the back to get coffee, and crashed cuz she thought it was like autopilot. Idiocy does seem to run rampant...considering all the people and thier cases I've stated won it...


*sigh* Once again: welcome to America.
The law system is seriously flawed...
(this isn't to counter your point, by the way)

Patch? Who says it's a patch? It was just said that it was a crack. A patch is a file given out by the company that owns the game's copyright.

#167

And I feel bad for the poor McDonald’s coffee lady, since everyone who mentions it and complains about what a stupid lawsuit it is tends not to remember that she was in the HOSPITAL for THIRD DEGREE BURNS (the incredibly nasty kind). And that she sued them only after they repeatedly refused her request to help her out with just the actual medical bill (no pain and suffering or anything).

Spilling coffee on yourself will hurt and suing just for that is stupid. Serious disabling burns means something’s wrong with their coffee.

People WILL try to sue for just about anything, or at least threaten to. (I hear stories from people who work in retail and the customers will threaten to sue for ANYTHING including not liking the ceiling tiles, all as trying to get some sort of discount on pointless crap they want to buy.) Generally the ones who actually win money had some case.

- Without looking it up, I can’t quote exactly how long she was there and what medical treatments she needed. However, I have looked it up before, and she was indeed injured beyond a reasonable coffee burn.

#168

3rd degree burns IS a little extreme for coffee. There’s a point when a company has to take responsibility for having a product that has an excessive potential to cause serious injury, even when it needn’t (obviously there’s not much you can do if you’re in the business of making knives).

#169
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Patch? Who says it's a patch? It was just said that it was a crack. A patch is a file given out by the company that owns the game's copyright.

*rolls eyes*

Um...a crack is a patch. It's an UNOFFICIAL patch, but people do things like that all the time. Analogous things for hardware exist, too. Installing a mod chip in your Playstation, for instance, is perfectly legal. It voids your warranty, but it's legal.

#170

And with the coffee thing, they were able to show in court that McDonald’s had a policy to keep coffee far hotter than it needed to be, that the official holding temperature was dangerously hot, AND that McDonald’s corporate headquarters enforced these rules.

The damage award was later substantially reduced because McDonald’s proved that the coffee at that particular store was not as hot as official policy said it was supposed to be.

There are plenty of examples of bullshit lawsuits. The McDonald’s coffee lawsuit is not one of them. Especially love how the ‘response’ was to add a disclaimer when that wasn’t the problem. (Of course they probably also changed the corporate policy…)

#171
quote:

Um...a crack is a patch. It's an UNOFFICIAL patch, but people do things like that all the time.

Like fan-built patches to fix bugs in official releases when the company is being painfully slow about getting around to it. (Circle of 8 patch for Temple of Elemental Evil - I think atari did FINALLY put out an official patch, but it was months after release)

Benoit, would you say it's always, always wrong to fix the game so that it will actually run if you don't have 'permission' in the form of a file downloaded from an official source to do so? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Are bugs a copyright issue to you?

#172
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
That one sounds urban legendy. I very much doubt this is real.

See, it even has an entry on an Urban Legends reference page!

http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

Once I find the newspaper clipping my uncle sent me I'll gladly send you a scan of it. The lady was one of those bandwagon fans for some College football team... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

#173
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
Like fan-built patches to fix bugs in official releases when the company is being painfully slow about getting around to it. (Circle of 8 patch for Temple of Elemental Evil - I think atari did FINALLY put out an official patch, but it was months after release)

*shudders*

I remember the stories about that game. Hell, just the bug lists were ridiculous enough. Spells that are supposed to give temporary bonuses being PERMANENT? Wow.

#174

Isn’t modifying a game without the company’s explicit consent a breach of the EULA for virtually all games?

Here’s what my Divine Divinity manual says: "The Software source code and related proprietary information and trade secrets are not licensed to USER, and any modification, addition, or deletion is strictly prohibited."

I know the EULA isn’t necessarily enforceable, but…

#175
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
Isn't modifying a game without the company's explicit consent a breach of the EULA for virtually all games?

Here's what my Divine Divinity manual says: "The Software source code and related proprietary information and trade secrets are not licensed to USER, and any modification, addition, or deletion is strictly prohibited."

I know the EULA isn't necessarily enforceable, but...

Even if the EULA itself is binding (which in many cases it may not be), it is restricted by law. They may SAY it but it may be legally worthless.

Even if it is binding and enforcable, there's a loophole bigger than a Mack truck in that example (admittedly picking apart 1 example doesn't mean much). That sentence refers to the source code. People who write patches don't hack away at the source code. They release a patch to the game binaries.

#176

I only have a minimal knowledge of computer programming…

What exactly is the difference between the source code and the binaries?

#177

Fixing bugs is one thing.
Pirating or cracking the game is another.

#178
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
I only have a minimal knowledge of computer programming...

What exactly is the difference between the source code and the binaries?


Source code is the human readable instructions Ie what we programmers write to make the computers do all these wonderful things. Binary is the machine readable excutable instructions, ie the exe files that you click on and the computer goes on it's merry way running the program
#179
quote:
Originally posted by Benoit:
Fixing bugs is one thing.
Pirating or cracking the game is another.

True but the process is the same. It's kinda like a gun you can use it to hunt for food or you can use it to hold up a bank [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
#180

Well, and how do you tell what’s what? What makes removing the need for a CD to be in the drive a crack and not a patch?

(makes up random example) Say your cd-drive is a bit slow and the game stutters whenever it tries to access the disc. So you edit the game to read directly from your hard drive instead, as a decision to improve your gameplay. Is that a patch or a crack?

In reality, certain game companies have semi-openly encouraged the use of no-CD ‘cracks’ because it saved them money. Needing the CD to play the game led to more needs for repair/replacement when the CDs cracked (known manufacturing flaw in the batch).

Sometimes it’s fairly obvious. If the game requires a CD-key to install and you download a keygen and create a false key to install your game, you’re clearly being dodgy.

Except even then there are cases where the ethics are unclear; depending on the program and the design a user might need two keys for five minutes to test a multiplayer setting and not to pirate the game.

Perhaps it’s more clear to say that actually pirating the game is what’s wrong?

I just wish I could think of a brilliant way to fight piracy without screwing things up for users. I don’t want people to steal the games. I don’t want thousands of whiny hentai fans playing only illegal copies and complaining there aren’t enough good games around. I especially don’t want jerks selling burned pirated copies on ebay (and I keep reporting them). What morons actually BUY those things? And yet, they do!