To People who Pirated Bishoujo Games on IRC

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#21
quote:
Originally posted by Noirbo:
But, for people who already "bought" the games using their own money, there shouldn't be any reason for them to pirate the games and make them available to people they don't even know.
[This message has been edited by Noirbo (edited 03-23-2004).]

I am going to play Devil's Advocate here for a minute. The US b-game industry has been heavily hindered by piracy - this is undeniable. So don't take what I have to say next too seriously - it's only food for thought.

You're missing one key point here - piracy can actually be beneficial. Most of this board's regulars started in b-games based off some form of pirated copies. Personally I did myself. Eventually, I became a true fan of these games and decided I should pay for them. Here I am today.

Would I have given any bishoujo game a second glance had I not tried it out illegal copies of early titles? No. A b-game is like $50 - a significant expense - and I had never tried the genre before. It would have been a rather large risk for unknown rewards. But now that I had pirated the games, I knew I liked them.

In short, piracy can actually be a potent market expansion tool. It is kind of like word of mouth, except one person can spread the word to a great many all at once.

#22
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
I don't know, maybe the pirate gets a high out of the attention by the people dling his pirated crap. It's not the first time people do illegal/stupid things to get adimiration from other people.

True! Online prestige seems to play a very important part. That is just plain silly and childish as prestige online doesn't mean a thing really.


quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
I think the main thing is price...there are many who pay for songs online, when they could just as easily (or almost as easily) get them for free elsewhere...many of these are the same people who did so before, not all...i know some people never did and i know many still download them for free anyways.
The differance is price to many of them. Price and content is key here, espically since many companies do not give out demos...there are games i toss away after 1 use

As stated in sevral posts before, Bishoujo Games are considered as luxury items. Therefore, even if they can't afford those games, the act of downloading pirated games is not justified. Would they try stealing
DVDs from best buy when they can't afford them? I think not because of the consequence they might face. Downloading and stealing are basically the same thing.

Anyway, this original post was directed to people who are the "sources" of the pirated games. It means they "can" afford the games and already have the Game CDs/DVDs in their possession. There is absolutely no "Practical" reason for them to provide the games, aside from some "unpractical" reasons suggested by several previous posts. In my opinion, if they like Bishoujo games enough to pay $50 per game = they must
be fans of B-Games. And they "should" realize what they are doing is not only wrong but hurtful to the industry as their actions might limit the possibility of new games being made available to English Speaking world.


quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
You're missing one key point here - piracy can actually be beneficial. Most of this board's regulars started in b-games based off some form of pirated copies.

THAT I am sure is how most of them (people who provide pirated games) dignify/justify their own action without considering the consequence they cause by providing the pirated games.

#23

Im sure the largest majority is poor College students. 18-21 ish kids with raging hormones and no money.

#24

Or as mentioned before underage people.

#25

Underage is clearly a part of it, but how much can credit cards be checked for a persons age? I know 16 year olds with credit cards, if they lie say they are 19 and try and order a game with the card will a red flag go up warning they are not truly 19 or can they pull it off?

#26

I can speak as Italian: I don’t pirate games or even forgive pirates, but i can easily imagine why they do that…

A) you americans really believe Credit Cards are widespread? Heck, if you don’t have a job here in Italy you can’t even get a bank account!!! Just imagine for credit cards…
so just change your payment system, idiots!!!

B) Shipment costs from US are simply unbeliaveble!!! 83 euro for a game is too much!!!

C) credit card fraud in Internet was at the top ten of crimes last year… Many tourists had their wallet broken just for using their CrC here in Italy ( and I mean 20000 US dollars or so ). You really don’t realize how unsafe it is to use these wacko’s… and not only on the Net.

D) Pre-paid or anti-fraud CrC we use in Italy are not accepted on American market.

[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 03-25-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 03-25-2004).]

#27
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
I can speak as Italian: I don't pirate games or even forgive pirates, but i can easily imagine why they do that...

A) you americans really believe Credit Cards are widespread? Heck, if you don't have a job here in Italy you can't even get a bank account!!! Just imagine for credit cards...
so just change your payment system, idiots!!!

B) Shipment costs from US are simply unbeliaveble!!! 83 euro for a game is too much!!!

C) credit card fraud in Internet was at the top ten of crimes last year... Many tourists had their wallet broken just for using their CrC here in Italy ( and I mean 20000 US dollars or so ). You really don't realize how unsafe it is to use these wacko's... and not only on the Net.

D) Pre-paid or anti-fraud CrC we use in Italy are not accepted on American market.

[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 03-25-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 03-25-2004).]

A) Why should they. I'm from the UK which, like the US, uses cards a lot. When I went to Europe last year it was a total pain that I had to carry so much cash about. I don't like doing that incase I get mugged. Many places would not accept cards. Also, in the town that I live there are cash machines everywhere. In four capital cities that I visited I had trouble finding any. If anything it is mainland Europe that should change it's system.

B)83 Euro's? What is it being shipped by, space shuttle? Even express courier delivery shouldn't cost that much. Also there are European shops like www.archonia.com that sell B-games.

C)Credit card fraud protection? I don't know what you have, but here in the UK you a generally not liable for fraudulent credit card use. Also, online fraud would not be a problem if people weren't so stupid with their credit card numbers. I get more worried handing my card over in restaurants.

D)That would be because they are not accepted worldwide like the major credit cards. My debit card isn't. Besides, the main market for English bishoujo games is America, so it isn't really a surprise that they cater mainly for Americans.

#28

well i was reading down this topic… and i had to add my little two cents… (not enough to buy a bgame lol) but i am one of those people who hung out with a guy @college who would always ask me if i wanted to try those pirated games out>> tsk tsk<<< guess what i am buying them now on a regular basis and showing my firends them too. Of those freinds i know a few who have dl a pirated version (i did mention they could borrow mine) and play a few… and you know … they have been buying since… Anime was much supported the same way… fansubbers have paved the way for anime to boom in the US… although i know the market and the paying feild is differnt…sigh… You know… sometimes its best not to make that much of a big deal… They wont wipe out the companies… cuase of people like us will keep buying… The greater population doesnt know of the bgame market… And in America (where i am from)it is our culture to suppress our sexual desires (remb wardrobe malfunction?)that it could never really go mainstream here, not yet anyways… so yeah … that is all I wanted to say …sorry for typos.

#29
quote:
Originally posted by miestro:
well i was reading down this topic... and i had to add my little two cents... (not enough to buy a bgame lol) but i am one of those people who hung out with a guy @college who would always ask me if i wanted to try those pirated games out>> tsk tsk<<< guess what i am buying them now on a regular basis and showing my firends them too. Of those freinds i know a few who have dl a pirated version (i did mention they could borrow mine) and play a few.. and you know .. they have been buying since... Anime was much supported the same way... fansubbers have paved the way for anime to boom in the US.... although i know the market and the paying feild is differnt...sigh.. You know.. sometimes its best not to make that much of a big deal.. They wont wipe out the companies.. cuase of people like us will keep buying... The greater population doesnt know of the bgame market... And in America (where i am from)it is our culture to suppress our sexual desires (remb wardrobe malfunction?)that it could never really go mainstream here, not yet anyways.. so yeah .. that is all I wanted to say ..sorry for typos.

Hmm... I remember a story that I heard before. A shoplifter got caught for stealing several $50 shirts from a local store. He gave some of the shirts to his friends and kept some of the shirts to himself. In court, the judge asked him if he wanted to plead guilty or not guily. The shoplifter proudly and loudly said: "Not Guilty." The judge became curious as all the evidences present were aginst him. So the judge asked the shoplifter: "Why do you plead not guilty when we caught you while your hand was in the cookie jar?" Guess what the shoplifter responded? He said: "I stole the shirts for me and my friends to "TEST" wear those shirts. If those shirts are truely comfortable, then some of my friends might start buying that brand of shirts from that store. See... I am giving out free advertisemenet for the store. THEY (The store he stole from) should pay me instead of calling the cops on me."

Does the shoplifter's logic sound familiar to you? Interesting eh ?

[This message has been edited by Noirbo (edited 03-25-2004).]

#30
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
I can speak as Italian: I don't pirate games or even forgive pirates, but i can easily imagine why they do that...

A) you americans really believe Credit Cards are widespread? Heck, if you don't have a job here in Italy you can't even get a bank account!!! Just imagine for credit cards...
so just change your payment system, idiots!!!

(..)

Well I have traveled various places in Europe and many if not all took the major credit cards that I have so I do not assume the entire world has Visa, Master Card, Discover, American Express and any other I am forgetting exist to my knowledge, but I do think that enough people have cards that the issue is one to be asked, can it be bought in the manner I previously asked?

Yes if someone steals the card and charges a mint on it, most cards do not have the card holder responsible for most if not all of what is charged so that is fraud protection.

#31

Some people don’t consider downloading theft in the same sense as shoplifting. I think they reason that “it’s only data”, “1’s and 0’s”, and doesn’t have any material value. To them I say, software is a good just like any other. It is produced at the cost of thousands of dollars and manhours of labor. Those who acquire or distribute illegal copies are stealing real income from folks like Lamuness whose livelihood is based on sales of the product.

Peach Princess BBS is one site that doesn’t condone any form of piracy - not even if it’s mentioned with a wink and a nod. That’s something our Junior Members should be aware of.

[This message has been edited by perigee (edited 03-25-2004).]

#32

Yea, but again to play the devil’s advocate, you can return a shirt if you don’t like it even if you put it on. Once you break that seal on a game, its gooddbye $50 bucks, even if you don’t like the game. Even if it won’t work on your system. Only if there is a decfect with the game disc will they ever do anything. That is a HUGE differance.

#33
quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
Yea, but again to play the devil's advocate, you can return a shirt if you don't like it even if you put it on. Once you break that seal on a game, its gooddbye $50 bucks, even if you don't like the game. Even if it won't work on your system. Only if there is a decfect with the game disc will they ever do anything. That is a HUGE differance.

Guess you don't live in my city. Once you break the seal of the shirts (whatever you want to call that). No way will they allow you to return them. Unless the seal is unbroken; just like games. They used to allow return/refund but because too many people took advantage of that policy. Therefore, that policy was taken away from us. Sad really...

#34

Nope i don’t live in your city. They got some security tags on them on some of the more expensive ones at some places, but that’s it.

#35
quote:
Originally posted by Jinnai:
Yea, but again to play the devil's advocate, you can return a shirt if you don't like it even if you put it on. Once you break that seal on a game, its gooddbye $50 bucks, even if you don't like the game. Even if it won't work on your system. Only if there is a decfect with the game disc will they ever do anything. That is a HUGE differance.

That's the total opposite of where I live. Games are easy to take back to most places. Clothes are much harder unless they are defective.

[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 03-25-2004).]

#36
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
I can speak as Italian:

I am Chinese borned, Latin-American raised, currently living in Canada. And, just in case, as this caused confusion once in another thread, I am NOT related to PeaPri, G-Collections or any of these companies.

quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
A) you americans really believe Credit Cards are widespread? Heck, if you don't have a job here in Italy you can't even get a bank account!!! Just imagine for credit cards...
so just change your payment system, idiots!!!

From PeaPri's company info and FAQ:

I don't have a credit card. How can I buy?

Check/money order payment is perfectly welcome, and in special situations, it's permissable to send cash as well (although please be very careful when sending). To order via any of these methods, click the "buy now" buttons normally, and choose the correct payment option after you enter your address.

----

As far as I know, most banks will sell you a money order for a nominal fee.


quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
B) Shipment costs from US are simply unbeliaveble!!! 83 euro for a game is too much!!!

Shipping a DVD from Japan to Canada is at least US$15.00. Worldwide shipping is not cheap, regardless of where you live. But, wait, isn't the Euro doing quite well right now against the US Dollar?

It makes me wonder now, how much do you spend a year in games, OLF?


quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
C) credit card fraud in Internet was at the top ten of crimes last year... Many tourists had their wallet broken just for using their CrC here in Italy ( and I mean 20000 US dollars or so ). You really don't realize how unsafe it is to use these wacko's... and not only on the Net.

Do as I (and a lot of people) do: have low-limit credit cards. You don't have to have six figure limit credit cards... Also, back in Panama (where I used to live), they have a one-shot credit cards, that is, a credit card valid only for one transaction (again, for a nominal fee).

quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
D) Pre-paid or anti-fraud CrC we use in Italy are not accepted on American market.

The world is not perfect, but that does not mean you can't try other options.

#37
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Underage is clearly a part of it, but how much can credit cards be checked for a persons age? I know 16 year olds with credit cards, if they lie say they are 19 and try and order a game with the card will a red flag go up warning they are not truly 19 or can they pull it off?

I am pretty certain this does not happen. In fact, I believe it would probably be illegal for the credit card company to divulge this information. Much less, a 16 year old is not of legal age - how did they enter into a contract to receive a line of credit in the first place? Because their parents cosigned, right?

#38
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
Some people don't consider downloading theft in the same sense as shoplifting. I think they reason that "it's only data", "1's and 0's", and doesn't have any material value. To them I say, software is a good just like any other. It is produced at the cost of thousands of dollars and manhours of labor. Those who acquire or distribute illegal copies are stealing real income from folks like [b]Lamuness whose livelihood is based on sales of the product.

[This message has been edited by perigee (edited 03-25-2004).][/b]

Again with the Devil's Advocacy here. I must say that there are plenty of legal and legitimate ways for you to enjoy software without paying for it.

* You can rent it

* A friend can lend it to you

* Said friend can decide he doesn't want it back and GIVE it to you

How are these ways different from bootlegging? They accomplish essentially the same result - you get a copy, you don't pay the creators.

[end Devil's Advocate]

Personally I would argue that the first two are distinct from piracy because you only TEMPORARILY acquire a copy. I am not sure what makes the last distinct from pirated goods.

#39
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
I am pretty certain this does not happen. In fact, I believe it would probably be illegal for the credit card company to divulge this information. Much less, a 16 year old is not of legal age - how did they enter into a contract to receive a line of credit in the first place? Because their parents cosigned, right?


Theorectically yes, but not I beleive if they have a certain amount already in the bank (who should have that co-controlled by their parent or guardian I know but as one of my professors is fond of saying 'hey it's the south') under their name, perhaps saving bonds etc, something to show they can buy things and not default on the first bill. That is my understanding of the laws at least within the state I am in, now if there are Federal laws that over-ride I am not sure.

Actually I am not sure what information is shared, remember as far as I know there is no legal restriction on the bank sharing some demographic information such as age information, or credit card companies doing that, so long as that information is not used by the company or given to a company with the intent to discriminate.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 03-25-2004).]

#40
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:

Theorectically yes, but not I beleive if they have a certain amount already in the bank under their name, perhaps saving bonds etc, something to show they can buy things and not default on the first bill. That is my understanding of the laws at least within the state I am in, now if there are Federal laws that over-ride I am not sure.

I meant in terms of "purported contracts with a minor are unenforcable". Minors are not competent to enter into contracts, so any supposed "cardholder's agreement" that a minor signed would basically be worthless - so I don't imagine too many card companies would be anxious to get into THAT mess.

I think. Not sure...