Waiting on XC2

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#181
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson:
As always, i agree with the fact that PP is not giving us any REAL updates on the games, i whoever says to be patient then to heck with them, maybe the one's that saying we should be patient are not even buying the games.

If you don't want to listen to me to when I say to be patient, that's fine. But at last check I am buying the games.

quote:
Well like i've been saying PP should stop acting like Jerks and give us a UPDATE on the games...

The question is, what kind of "update" are you looking for? Do you want a percentage of their testing their done? How many lines of code they've gone through? The number of people working on the game at any given time? What particular bug they are working on? How much information do you want them to give until you feel statisfied in their updates?

#182
quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
The question is, what kind of "update" are you looking for? Do you want a percentage of their testing their done? How many lines of code they've gone through? The number of people working on the game at any given time? What particular bug they are working on? How much information do you want them to give until you feel statisfied in their updates?

Most companies I have read do just that, but a little more vague. "We are 75% complete on _____" is very common. Personally, I say to heck with G-Collections, I want XC2. That's what I pre-ordered, and will buy, not the GC stuff.

#183

This is an excellent suggestion, one that a lot of mainstream companies use. A “percent finished” quote would give us an Idea of how long we are going to have to wait

#184
quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
The question is, what kind of "update" are you looking for? Do you want a percentage of their testing their done? How many lines of code they've gone through? The number of people working on the game at any given time? What particular bug they are working on? How much information do you want them to give until you feel statisfied in their updates?

It is theoretically impossible to schedule for unknowns. Thus ANY testing schedule is going to be a crude approximation, by nature of the testing process (which necessitates by nature that you not know what you're going to find).

Bug testing is, well, icky. And once bugs are fixed, then you have to test that to see if the fix worked or not.

While they're, say, translating the script, or having the CG redrawn...they can provide a reasonable estimate; but once bugtesting has started, all you can really do is keep testing until the frequency of found bugs, and their severity, falls off to your target.

#185
quote:
Originally posted by kmusky:
This is an excellent suggestion, one that a lot of mainstream companies use. A "percent finished" quote would give us an Idea of how long we are going to have to wait

But you have to realize two things.

One, those percentages are fictitious.

Two, large companies have paid staff and much more rigid schedules. It is far easier to estimate how long it will take when a large company does it, because you can count on regular progress at more or less known rates.

#186
quote:
Originally posted by kmusky:
This is an excellent suggestion, one that a lot of mainstream companies use. A "percent finished" quote would give us an Idea of how long we are going to have to wait

I think at this point it's safe to say that the only thing which will "give us an idea of how long we are going to have to wait" is an actual shipping date. No, maybe I should change that to "once I have it in my hands." Not trying to be a downer, but the only percentage that means anything is 100%. If they post that they're 90% complete, how would that help any of us know how much longer things will take? They could run into problems at any moment or it could be clear sailing. Production speed can change constantly.

I hate to be a realist here (well, realistic in my private little world, at least), but demanding updates or getting impatient isn't going to change the speed with which PeaPri delivers XC2. At least, I don't think they're sitting on a finished game or twiddling their thumbs and not working just to piss us off. I imagine they want to be done with these games just as bad as we want to play them. And, yeah, I get frustrated when there's hardly any mention of their games in their updates, but what else can you do but check back and wait for it to be released?

Even though I believe what I'm saying, I'm still kind of dissapointed with the way things have been going in PeaPri's "actually releasing games" department. I'm kind of worried whether PeaPri's going to stay afloat.

Which, of course, means that I'll have to buy whatever they release even though I'd prefer to save my money for BS. Gotta' support them somehow. Man, the things I am forced to do for my lesser recognized hobbies. What a pain (in my wallet)!

Edit: And as I was typing this, Nandemonai (the sneaky fellow) slipped in and stated what I was trying to say before I could submit my post. He also said it better than I ever could.

[This message has been edited by Gorky (edited 03-24-2003).]

#187

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ekylo:
[If you don’t want to listen to me to when I say to be patient, that’s fine. But at last check I am buying the games.

I wasn’t refering to you exactly Ekylo, and meant the majority of people that was saying that, i didn’t say you didn’t buy any games.

as for the Update, they can always give us a percentage update as Shilar says, or give us a bit more info on what is going on, and why the games are taking so long. Don’t you think the people that reserved the games deserves at least that much? or should we just act like we don’t care, i’m sure PP doesn’t want customers to leave. even though you or me might not leave, what about other people.

PP should know the situation and calm people down by making them feel confident that they will be getting the games. but when they don’t tell us whats going on, how are we suppose to understand?

You said we should just be patient, yes maybe you can be patient, but tell that to the people that has been wating 2-3 years for the games. are you telling them to be more patient? how about another year, maybe or two?.

Again, all i’m saying is that PP should stop keeping everything confidential and let us know whats what. I’m not trying to start some dispute, but even if i didn’t say anything, someone else would.

#188

Well Gorky, i’m sure PP reads the forums, so we are hoping they see all the complaints, and find a way to calm the people down.

Yes i am also worried about PP’s future the ways things are going right now, I have heard people say that all they want right now is BS, and XC2 and PP can die after that.

comments like that shows me how many PP are turning away from PP right now, and that is definately not good. Instead of bringing in more customers, its the other way around. I want PP to stay alive, because they have alot of good games planned, and theres alot of games that i am hoping they will translate soon, but unless they release something very soon, they might be in a bit more trouble.

#189
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson:
...i'm sure PP reads the forums, so we are hoping they see all the complaints, and find a way to calm the people down.

Yes i am also worried about PP's future the ways things are going right now, I have heard people say that all they want right now is BS, and XC2 and PP can die after that...

Well, to be honest, all I want right now is BS. My thoughts on XC2 right now are still up in the air, as I'm not really looking for a subway-rape-fest-oh-god-stop-eventually-she-learns-to-love-it-game. From what I've seen so far, XC2 might be a lot better than the first and... hell, who am I kidding? I'll end up buying it anyway, just to support PP. As for PP dying after that: I seriously hope not. My interest was piqued when they released information about Doushin (or was it Synchronous Hearts?). And considering all that they have on their plate right now, if things keep rolling it might be 2005-06 until we actually see it for ordering again. No matter what gets released, I'm always waiting for another one.

Also, I always thought that Lamuness was the only one who is officially associated with PeaPri that reads these forums. I doubt P. Payne has the time to sift through all of the posts (especially considering how insanely off topic nearly every thread gets after the first page). And I'd like to assume that Lamuness has already mentioned some of our concerns and complaints to PeaPri, but a lot of this stuff has just been rehashed over and over again for months (years?) now. I doubt Lamuness telling PeaPri our complaints even once a month will do anything productive, and likely end up to just be irritating.

Who knows? (that was a rhetorical question, but if you truly do "know," feel free to let it be known...)

#190
quote:
Originally posted by Gorky:
Edit: And as I was typing this, Nandemonai (the sneaky fellow) slipped in and stated what I was trying to say before I could submit my post. He also said it better than I ever could.

[This message has been edited by Gorky (edited 03-24-2003).]

*sighs*

I just can't win, can I...People don't like it when I get too absorbed in my own insanity. And now people are complaining that I'm being too serious!

...I think I'll start posting in Chinese. The fact that I don't know the language won't be that big of a problem, since most people's browsers won't be able to display it anyway.


In all seriousness, the "you cannot schedule for the unknown" is more or less ripped straight out of a Dilbert cartoon (well, [EDIT: the Dilbert cartoon had] a whole lot more bitter sarcasm).

[This message has been edited by Nandemonai (edited 03-25-2003).]

#191
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson:
Well Gorky, i'm sure PP reads the forums, so we are hoping they see all the complaints, and find a way to calm the people down.

Yes i am also worried about PP's future the ways things are going right now, I have heard people say that all they want right now is BS, and XC2 and PP can die after that.

comments like that shows me how many PP are turning away from PP right now, and that is definately not good. Instead of bringing in more customers, its the other way around. I want PP to stay alive, because they have alot of good games planned, and theres alot of games that i am hoping they will translate soon, but unless they release something very soon, they might be in a bit more trouble.

Also keep in mind they added DVDs and manga, and started selling artbooks *_*, because they needed some kind of revenue source. Given how much the product seems to be moving, I'd say they have a decent revenue stream.

I order any DVD through them I can get. I also bought lots of cool artbooks, and was a big consumer of the White Album and LMM cards.

This, combined with their "small company of people working out of love of the market" philosophy means I don't think Peach Princess is going anywhere soon, at least not while they have the rights to titles that are in production now.

So at the least we're going to see Little My Maid and Doushin/Synchronous Hearts. And if not, I'll have to use my unholy powers.

#192

Also, I’m just going to add in my two cents here.

Peach Princess should probably have never announced all those titles. This is a good example of the many-edged-sword nature of publicity–AMYthing you say in public can, and most certainly will, come back to bite you in the ass should the slightest thing not go perfectly.

Peach Princess announced XChange 2, LMM: Pandora’s Box, Gibo, Doushin, La Voyeur, and…what was it? Newscaster Mariko?..and they announced all these titles while still working on in-progress titles, which I believe at the time included:

* Tokimeki Checkin!
* Little My Maid
* Critical Point
* Brave Soul

That’s an INSANE number of projects. Most well-established, profitable game companies would find such an ambitious schedule…well…ambitious. Dangerously so.

Granted, b-games are less complex games than most–obviously excluding Brave Soul, which is an RPG and a b-game at once. But they have much less staff.

Pea Pri couldn’t possibly make any sort of progress, even very slow progress, on ALL these projects, all at the same time. There was simply no way it was going to happen. Thus they should have kept their collective mouth shut, to avoid exactly what happened–having to suspend a bunch of projects, and having extended no-news stretches that try everyone’s patience.

Supposing XChange 2 and…which one’s close to coming out? Gibo? Supposing XC2 and Gibo had been announced right after Critical Point was released. Where would we be now?

#193
quote:
Originally posted by kmusky:
This is an excellent suggestion, one that a lot of mainstream companies use. A "percent finished" quote would give us an Idea of how long we are going to have to wait

Do you really think so?
I think, that in common development projects, the first 90% of work are done in 90% of the estimated time. The remaining 10% usually take the other 90%...

#194
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
So at the least we're going to see Little My Maid and Doushin/Synchronous Hearts. And if not, I'll have to use my unholy powers.

Are those better or worse than your HOLY powers? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img].

#195
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Are those better or worse than your HOLY powers? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img].

Well, he accidentally mentioned that merger before. Maybe, he has now some troubles of distinguishing between them.

Of cause, it could be also regarded as one of those valuable synergy-effects. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

#196
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
Peach Princess announced XChange 2, LMM: Pandora's Box, Gibo, Doushin, La Voyeur, and...what was it? Newscaster Mariko?

Didn't you forget something really, really important? As for example "Slave Bazaar"? *takes another look at the picket-line*


quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
But they have much less staff.

To put it more obvious: They have no develeoping staff at all. They might have testing staff, they sure have sales personnel, but not one employed developer. So they completely depend on the amount of work, CROWD and Will invest at their own risk besides their own new developments for the japanese market. That's PeaPri's main weakness, that allow only one accurate estimation regarding the next release-dates: As soon as it's completed.[\\B]


quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
[B] Thus they should have kept their collective mouth shut, to avoid exactly what happened--having to suspend a bunch of projects, and having extended no-news stretches that try everyone's patience.

Well, we all know, who this "collective mouth" was, right? I suppose, he leaked quite a lot of confidential information in his newsletters without informing the other staff before. That would be one plausible explanation, why Lamuness for example is still pissed about him. This thread shows the long-term-implacations of his decisions.

Of cause, the whole effect was enhanced by opening the preorders for these games (another great idea of this common mouth, I suppose). I understand the frustration of anybody, who preordered them about a year ago and still has no news when he/she will have the already payed products in his/her hands.

But honestly, I don't believe anyone could give under this circumstances a realistic as well as satisfying estimation.

#197
quote:
Originally posted by Crimson:
I wasn't refering to you exactly Ekylo, and meant the majority of people that was saying that, i didn't say you didn't buy any games.

I know you didn't single me out but you were commenting on those who are advocating patience, of which I'm one of them. So I responded. *shrug*

quote:

You said we should just be patient, yes maybe you can be patient, but tell that to the people that has been wating 2-3 years for the games. are you telling them to be more patient? how about another year, maybe or two?

I'm not really telling anyone anything, mainly because I know no matter what I say, some people won't listen. That's why I'm offering up my own opinions and advice of what's going on.

It's all up to what one feels they can handle. For me, these games are my hobby, and I don't think I should be stressing out over a hobby. Plus, I've lived through the fun and games of 'Transfer Student' and I've also been waiting a couple of years for LMM now, so it's not like I havn't been through all this as well.

And to tell you the truth, any status update on a game short of "is being sent off for duplication" is relatively meaningless to me. Like Nandemonai-san and Unicorn-san pointed out (although Unicorn-san did it with some strange math numbers), the percentages don't really help as much as one might think. I know one game I was keeping tabs on spent 6 months in testing, of which half that time was spent at '99% complete'. They can alleviate some the anxienty for those who feel that nothings being done on the tiles, but that's mainly it. For me, I tend to go on faith (and some business reasoning) that they're working on the games.

I really havn't agreed with the way PeaPri has handled a lot of things, but then again, I don't own the company. Someone, somewhere made those decisions, and now they have to live with the consequences for it.

In it all, I'm really just offering up a differing point of view. It's up to anyone reading to decide how much to believe or how accurate I am in my assessment.

#198

Ok i DO own a buisness so i do somewhat understand the legistics of what peapri is doing, and to say they are doing it wrong would be just stupid… first of all when your a small buisness (10 employees if that) its SO HARD to make changes, its impossible to rush things… the only thing you can hope for is that the people that keep you going keep coming back.

If peachprincess says they will get these games out asap i believe em… even if thats X-mas this year i know exactly how hard it is to do buisness from the bottom up.

With that said, im sure peachprincess is doing all they can afford to do (which im sure wouldnt buy dinner for a week, for 1 person) what they are doing now im sure they are doing with the hopes these games sell enough to get more food on the table (if you know what i mean with this anology)

#199
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
Are those better or worse than your HOLY powers? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img].

They're far more spectacular. How does that work for you?

#200
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
Didn't you forget something really, really important? As for example "Slave Bazaar"? *takes another look at the picket-line*

Ah! Gomen nasai!

I knew I was forgetting something. (Really. I spent a good 5 minutes trying to think of it, and couldn't.)