As a serious question, why is futanari so heavily disliked by people? I see that the X-change series keeps coming out with more and more sequels, and it seems pretty much about the same thing. In the X-change series, a guy turns into a girl and then proceeds to have sex with both guys and (bisexual/lesbian) girls. Futanari games are about girls that turn into hermaphrodites and then proceed to have sex with mostly other girls.
The other day, I got to play Blue Gale’s “Naisho no Tintin Time”, which is a great game for those that like futanari. I don’t mind kinky games as long as they are interesting and original, and I think that this game is definitely pretty unique. I wish that this game would be uncensored and released in the U.S., but it appears that I’m in the minority in terms of liking this kind of genre, and therefore it will never happen. I find that to be really too bad, because I like the ero-content in this game, and it’s surprisingly non-violent (except for the one “bad” ending) with just mild domination themes. By mild domination, I mean that Ai is a naive girl that becomes a futanari by accident, and then she encounters silly situations where she “unwillingly” has H with other (horny) females in her high school.
For instance, one cool part that I like is when you have sex with a girl in the game, most of the time Ai will scream out that she can’t hold it in anymore, and you get to pick how you want to “unload”. If you’re with a girl that likes you, then she’ll request that you come in her, and this is actually important if you want a happy ending with her. If you pull out, there’s different screen shots, and the girl gets a little upset because she thinks you don’t trust her, and this leads to a different story path. This is so different from other anime/games where “nakadashi” is viewed as a kinky thing, and girls often say the exact opposite thing (“Please don’t come in me!”) and the protagonist does it anyway as a domination thing.
One more side note… This game is one of the few games that I’ve seen that actually draws semen realistically. I noticed that many games tend to draw it like white school glue or pancake batter.
I don’t know: perhaps most people who like girls like girls who are… girls? You know, human beings with female attributes. Sure, I guess we could admit that some may enjoy some alterations to these attributes (hence furries), but I would assert that it’s only as long as these attributes are minor, so that the girl can still be called a human girl (e.g. two-headed, with four arms and tentacles may be too many alterations).
What about futanari, then? Well, even if we ignore the fact that the sexual nature of the characters, therefore their sexual attributes, comes into consideration because the games are erogames, the difference between what makes a representative of a race either male, female, bisexual or asexual is… the sexual consideration itself anyway. Therefore, one may propound the theory that the lack of appeal of futanari to most people is that dickgirls are not, well, girls.
As inconceivable as it might be, there are people who find twincest disgusting. Then there are those who find loli horrifying… others can’t stand guro… scat… rape… etc, etc, etc… Dickgirls are a “fetish” - just like twincest. Thus tolerance and/or enjoyment of the fetish, depends on the person. Dickgirls aren’t 100% loved… but then, neither is twincest - and all you haters are going to [color=#FF0000]BURN IN HELL[/color] for it too!!!
However enough people enjoy it, that companies keep cranking them out…
Does it make you fall on your knees and scream, “Thank you God!!! I know You exist, for only a divine being could have made such perfection in a fucked up world!” Or does it make you recoil in disgust and wanna have those sisters sent to a mental institution? Futanari love is no different.
Actually, I thought that depended on which reproduction organ works. If both work, then yea… dickgirl is neither male or female… but that “third” sex.
I don’t think so. A sterile man is still a man, and a sterile woman is still a woman. It’s not about “which reproduction organ works” for the individual, it’s about which are the reproduction organs for the race.
If a “dickgirl” can bear children, but cannot impregnate, then they are biologically female. While they might have a penis with working muscle (rare as that is), they are still female and surgery can be performed to “correct” it (there’s a whole philosphical argument that this is wrong, and that’s beyond the scope of anything I wanna argue about). Of course if this isn’t done, then you have a dickgirl… On the flipside you can have a “dickgirl” with a vagina but they can’t bear children (no ovaries and womb), but they can inseminate. This is also “correctable” depending on the circumstances: the male equivalent.
Now I mean people can go REALLY insane and argue the whole “male” and “female” thing… but it gets kinda out of hand: there are women with XY chromosomes (but still female), men with XX chromosomes (but still male), and even XXYY chromosome people (always male). :shock:
I’m pretty open about my interests, and needless to say, I’ve been called sick for some of the smallest things, such as having a girl on a leash and collar in public. Not everyone has the same interests or tastes, or even tolerance levels for that matter. I think Narg summed it up best with his reference to twincest. So elaborating further on my part would be moot.
No, because the fact that the “dickgirl” may or may not impregnate, and may or may not bear children may just be a deficiency of the individual, not the race (i.e. sterility), therefore it cannot be a criterion to judge whether the “dickgirl” is male or female (or both or neither). The gender of an individual is defined through the characteristics of the race to which it pertains, not through the characteristics of the individual taken alone. If we consider “dickgirl” as being part of the human race, then it’s the sexual attributes of the human race that matters. As such, a “dickgirl” is neither male, nor female, or perhaps both but that wouldn’t make them girls. Of course, calling one “dickgirl” is misleading since it could just as well be called “vaginaboy”.
Your argument would be only valid if, as a race, “dickgirls” could bear children and/or insiminate.
Now, you’re arguing genetics, which is pretty stupid since afaik there’s no “dickgirl” IRL, therefore you cannot say which chromosomes they have.
Sexual orientation is determined through two factors: primary sexual characteristics and secondary sexual characteristics. Primary are the reproductive organs. Secondary are things like chest hair and breasts. As it self explains: primary is the more important of the two. Long story short: males impregnate and females gestate. The only exception to this in the entire animal kingdom ¬ñ i.e. male pregnancy ¬ñ is the seahorse. That’s the PRIMARY sexual classification in the medical community. That’s how the phenotype of “dickgirls” ¬ñ if they are male or female ¬ñ is initially determined. Secondary steps include chromosome analysis and various hormonal testing ¬ñ this becoming more important in the scenario where neither sex organs on a “dickgirl” are fully functional.
First off, being a “dickgirl” is not a race… it’s a genetic disorder. Hence me referring to genetics. The Y chromosome is the sex-determining chromosome in humans ¬ñ or more specifically the SRY gene. Its genetics, but it’s far from stupid: it’s what makes you male or female… and in rare cases, expressing organs of both sexes simultaneously.
As for “real” dickgirls. Yes. They do exist. And I don’t mean the Klinefelter or Turner classifications. I mean TRUE “both male and female” at the same time. Since I oh-so hate Wikipedia as a primary source, here’s the category search from an honest to God medical information repository:
The proper medical term for what we’re discussing is: Intersexual.
You find HUNDREDS of articles, research, and books. Many of them WAY above our league (i.e. its for real doctors). Recently there’s been experiments on goats for intersex understanding… which is how I learned so much about this topic. A friend of mine used to live on a farm, and he told me all about this goat of his that had male and female sex organs. I didn’t believe such a thing was possible, so I looked it up one day. Goats seem to have it lot more common than humans. Hence why scientists are poking and prodding them.
I recommend that you read books by Milton Diamond on this subject, if you’re interested to know more. Milton is one of the the world’s foremost experts in the field (and publishes in English).
EDIT - had a typo there… spelled intersexual as intersexal. :oops:
You [EDIT:Olf] would be mildly incorrect. Ambiguously-gendered individuals are exceedingly rare, but do happen. I actually knew someone who that happened to. Thought he was a boy, until the chest started filling out. Then his parents told him “well, acutally, when you were born, there was … a full set; the doctor told us to pick, so we did … guess it was wrong.” She ended up being unable to deal with the stress and killed herself a few years later.
As for my b-game fantasies, I like futa because of the potential for (.5 girl/.5 boy) + (1 girl). That’s a 1.5 : .5 (3:1) girl ratio. Significantly more interesting to me than 1:1 guy:girl ratios for the same reason I like lesbian strippers. (Not the biggest fan of harem scenes; they are often rather poor, IMO.)
{EDIT: Dammit, Narg, how did that big long reply get posted before my short one in between loading the page and replying?]
FOR THE RACE! Or are you telling me that a sterile man isn’t a man since he cannot impregnate? The primary sexual characteristics are determined FOR THE WHOLE RACE, then a particular individual is classified (as being male or female) according to the characteristics determined for the race. You don’t check if an individual is actually a female by testing if she can or cannot actually gestate (or then, heck, human people are actually asexual before they can actually either impregnate or gestate, which is the nonsense you’ve been talking).
No. If they’re supposed to be human, then the primary sexual characteristics of human beings are checked on them. They’re not seahorses, so the point about seahorses doesn’t apply, nor the point about snails (bisexual), nor any other race.
You don’t get my point at all. You can apply for them a different way to check for their primary sexual characteristics IF (IF, IF, IF!) they were a different race. Since they are NOT, you have to use the ones of the human race… and find they are, as you said, affected by a genetic disorder… meaning they could not be classified the normal way. So, no, they are NOT either male nor female.
So, they were both. Not just female. Hence you cannot say that “dickgirls” are girls. Hence my point. Hence I’m right.
Even if they can only be one or the other, since it varies from one “dickgirl” to another, and you have to actually check for each individual, you can therefore not say “dickgirls are female” or “dickgirls are male”. Therefore, “dickgirls” are not girls, since they can be both, either, or neither.
I don’t have to: you just proved my point.
Which is my answer to the original question. You and Nande can argue all you want about how a futanari can possibly be a girl, the fact that it’s only a possibility means that, in a absolute meaning, they are not, or could be considered as not being so. Which is why most people won’t like them. Which is the answer to the question, and not your tries to refute it.
I now see where you coming from and where we are having a point of contention, but you must bear with me here and read my entire post.
A sterile man is still a man, because of his genotype. Even an artificial sex change can’t do anything about that.
Ultimately through two forms: genotype and phenotype. This brings in the whole “genotype-phenotype distinction” ¬ñ which is well beyond the scope of our discussion.
In raw simplicity, females exist to gestate: that’s what all female sexual genomes ultimately achieve. In raw simplicity, males exist to impregnate: that’s what all male sexual genomes ultimate achieve. Sterility has NOTHING to do with sexual orientation. Just because a woman cannot conceive does not mean she’s not a woman. Unless were talking about something like Robertsonian Translocation here, she has ALL the genomes that sexually make a woman. Why she cannot bear children is due to something else that might be biological (such as gland imbalance) or not (radiation sterility) ¬ñ but it has no bearing on the definition of sex.
You failed to see my point and arguing from this vantage point will only cause more confusion, so I’ll drop it to attack from another direction.
What you are saying here goes against everything the medical community has discussed on the topic. Again: please look at that medical site I referred. If you can find it, read SRY and Sex Determination in Mammals by Goodfellow and Lovell-Badge.
If a newborn is born with female and male genitals, a series of tests are conducted, including but not limited too: examination of which sex organ is fully developed, chromosome testing, and hormonal testing. Doctors then determine if the child is male or female. Just because you have the “extra parts” does NOT make you neither and both sex at the same time: imbalanced hormonal wash during conception causes this sort of thing. Doctors will consult with the parents, and when it is possible (sometimes they have to wait a few years for various reasons; sometimes they can’t do it at all), perform surgery to remove the “useless” parts. Thus your dickgirl has a DEFINED sex of male or female, because through everything I have been discussing about earlier, all evidence determines what the child’s sex is. This isn’t anything new and it happens all the time.
Taking this from a medical journal I have on hand (written by Andrew H. Sinclair):
In mammals, the Y chromosome is male determining, and encodes a gene referred to as TDF (testis-determining factor), which induces the indifferent embryonic gonad to develop as a testis. Subsequent male sexual differentiation is largely a consequence of hormonal secretion from the testis. In the absence of the Y chromosome, the testis-determining pathway fails to be initiated, and the embryonic gonad develops as an ovary, resulting in female development.
Now as research from Milton Diamond has shown: if a dickgirl has an intact female reproductive system (irrespective if its sterile or not), but an incomplete male reproductive system, in the vast majority of cases, the subject is predominantly XX chromosome like a normal woman. The result of male organs can be due to other factors such as “bad” hormone wash during birth - which does not effect the genetics of the subject being male. Likewise, if a dickgirl has an intact male reproductive system (irrespective if its sterile or not), but an incomplete female reproductive system, in the vast majority of cases, the subject is predominantly XY chromosome like a normal man. Of course like everything in life, there are always exceptions and complications, in which case further investigation is undertaken… leading to my next part…
We finally get to the point of this entire long debate.
Nearly all dickgirls can be classified into male or female due to the predominance of which “sex genes” are in them. They might have tits and a dick, but the hormones that pump through them aren’t so fifty-fifty that doctors and geneticists can’t tell the difference. This is where experts like Milton Diamond come in. They can make the determination. In fact, Milton has done so many times in legal battles and helping doctors make the correct analysis in determining if a “dickgirl” is male or female.
Now in ULTRA UBER MEGA RARE cases… yes… there are true dickgirls. These are the real deal intersexual: the “third sex” of humanity. I think this is where we are having our misunderstanding.
As stated on that medical site, only a mere 0.018% of the population might (and that’s a strong might) classify in this range.
There are male dickgirls (men with tits). There are female dickgirls (women with dicks). There are dickgirls who are authentically male and female at the same time (the real damn deal). You are only focusing on this last category.
See my above post.
I believe the point was flawed due to misunderstanding… but I’ll wait your reply and see if this is so…
In any even, if this topic is seriously interesting to you (or you just want proof that doctors/scientists CAN make a distinction) I think you need to read his book, Sexual Decisions (ISBN 0316183881). First off because I’m not a certified medical genius like he is, and the way he explains it is from the position a true expert who has three PH.D in sexual related biology. Secondly, he vindicates it from the prospective of someone who knows it from experience (was born a boy raised as girl, due to a REALLY bad circumcision). Third, he has segments devoted to the discussion of “dickgirls” (not what he calls them of course).
Ultimately I think the confusion we are having stems from this: being a dickgirl does not mean you are intersexual (both male and female). Neither does being intersexual necessarily mean you are a dickgirl. However the medical study of dickgirls is generally within the field of intersexual studies. Lastly, it is medically impossible to NOT be male and/or female in humans: you are one or both. Thus dickgirls are classified within any of the three categorizes, depending on the circumstances.
EDIT: Clean typos and tried to make sure nothing could be accidentally misconstrued.
Also on a side note, Milton Diamond - which is off topic for this post, but not for the forum - has vindicated pornographic material once:
Now if only he would do research on twincest… although it could be possible, he’s already done it not published the results - or he’s researching it. 8)
Well “normality” really depends on cultural beliefs and tolerance - sometimes even when its totally against what behavioral science might argue. For example twincest is not seen as “normal” or “acceptable” by the scientific community. Neither is pedophilia. Or beastiality (which offhand, I suppose tentacles fall within, but don’t start quoting me on that ) . As such, all have an ICD-10 code with the WHO. However these are classified as psychological disorders ¬ñ and not genetic. For a time, homosexuality was also classed as an ICD-10… so as society changes, so does the definition of what’s acceptable and what’s not.
it’s a classic case of people being snooty and ‘Your Kink Is Not OK’
I don’t care if some people don’t like futa, I don’t expect everybody to like everything.
It is somewhat offensive if people get all “that’s fucked up, something must be wrong with you” about it. Because that kneejerk reaction reminds me way too much of the way homophobes react to “omg gay!” - and I associate those people with being scary violent bastards who might try to kill me.
IIRC futa is pretty darn popular on DLsite. There are many communities for futa-love. I know a girl (not me. seriously.) who is totally obsessed with futa and likes to photoshop cocks onto famous actresses.
scat, guro, and loli are objectively dangerous things to like in the real world, and are therefore quite disturbing to many people even in hentai. (And quite arousing things to other people in hentai, because in hentai they’re just drawings and not dangerous so you can get the ‘ooo, i’m so taboo-breaking’ without actual risk)
I think I can agree that futanari is “not normal”. But why would I care whether it’s normal or not? It’s entirely irrelevant to whether I like it or not.
Incest is an ever-popular theme in porn, for example, but most people would flee in terror at the sight of it in real life.
Because the original question was about “why don’t people like futanari”, not “why would they like them”? I’m so sorry I answered the question asked instead of debating about how the answers don’t make sense for you or Narg!
So, sure, if someone asks you “what time it is?” and I tell him “it’s 3:00pm”, you and Narg can debate all you want about how time is a subjective notion, how the present doesn’t truly exist because it changes constantly and how it’s never the same time everywhere on Earth because of time-shifts, fact is my answer is correct and yours are just being jerks about the matter.
Dude… why are you sniping like that? I am giving you the answer as given by the medical community. Time being subjective is a philosophical debate. Sex is a biological fact. It’s like you’re arguing against 0.9999~ equals 1, because you don’t like the answer.
I’ve referred you (and others who are reading this debate) to peer panel review medical sites and medical journals that give you the answer. The same answer I’ve been telling you. Hell… even the substandard Wikipedia has this topic basically understood (if only because they are copying Britannica Online). I obviously respect you as an online friend, and therefore I respect your opinions… but if you’re going to claim someone is incorrect, please don’t use the, “because I say so and everyone else is wrong” response. It belittles your own argument… especially when everything on the topic completely goes against what you claim.
Progestin-induced virilisation: proven medical situation of a dickgirl that’s classified as female.
Persistent m√ºllerian duct syndrome: proven medical situation of a dickgirl (or vaginaboy if you prefer) that’s classified as male.
It doesn’t get anymore simpler than that. Just exactly where are you getting your “facts” from? What doctor? What medical site? Why are you trying to make this a reductio ad absurdum? It’s definitive biology - not theoretical physics. We can take this to an authentic medical forum if you want: they’re just going to tell you the same thing I am. There are male dickgirls and there are female dickgirls. That’s not what Narg or Nandemonai are saying, that’s what the EXPERTS are saying. Like it or not, that’s how it goes.
EDIT*
I’ve gone back and edited this post, to make it not sound “jerk” as I can. I eventually found this awesomely graphic case (don’t go if you have a weak stomach) on the Geneva Foundation for Medical Education and Research site. Its the surgically removed uterus, fallopian tubes and upper vagina from a MALE (and note all the medical documentation, distinctly denote him a male - not some “third sex” - as do all other cases of Persistent m√ºllerian duct syndrome. It eventually refers back to the original medical site I mentioned previously, for more detailed information.
On the original topic:
A lot of people don’t like futanari because most of us are not bisexual. In other words, we don’t like our cherished females to have an additional dick. It’s really that simple.
MrBiggens: let’s try to avoid the harsh rhetoric, ok? People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, etc. We all have our own unique tastes in these parts.
Olf and Narg: May I recommend this stellar treatise on the topic to you both:
To answer the “why not futanari” question, I think it’s true that many people don’t see the attraction in abnormal/paranormal/supernatural erotica, period. If it can’t happen in real life it shouldn’t happen in fiction. This begs the question “why catgirls”, which brings us to the category difference between animal ears stuck on a girl and a penis stuck on a girl - but are they really that different?
For us to be having this discussion obviously the answer is “yes”. I have the feeling this distinction is largely grounded in culturally ingrained notions of sexuality that many of us have, but that are much weaker in Japan - futanari and animal ears receive relatively similar treatment in the Japanese fetish pantheon, and obviously futanari isn’t nearly the taboo here that it is elsewhere.
Perhaps one of the reasons for this is that futanari, like catgirls, are often depicted as purely fantastic creatures, and it’s easy for the Japanese mind to divorce them from reality (sorry for the Nihonjinron, it’s to make a point), whereas us Westerners tend to conjure up images of ghoulish Frankenstein’s-monster-esque chimaeras when we think of a woman with a penis on.
Just my two cents.
Edit: Oh, and “futanari” is consistently one of the top daily search terms of J-List’s product database. Take that for what you will.
No, I was on topic; I said arguing something’s “not normal” is irrelevant. Saying that something is “not normal” doesn’t really mean jack squat, since 90% of what happens in most h-games isn’t normal anyway; yet people have no issue with most h-games. People even like the XChange series, which as the original poster pointed out, is very close to futa (all those guys hitting on Takuya always kind of weirded me out). I also raised the incest fetish, which is popular precisely BECAUSE it’s not normal. “It’s not normal” isn’t a good answer, because so many other things that are not normal are not stigmatized. So if someone says they don’t like futa because it’s “not normal”, but don’t also complain about all the other unnatural things going on in b-games, almost certainly they really mean something else.
Personally, I lean towards the “smacks of bisexuality” explanation myself.
