I’m not sure if I follow you(that message was a bit hard to understand)…but exactly how do people get tired of a company who only release a game every year or so?
Any change in peoples tastes usually have to to do with the types of characters present in games…not the genres themselves. There was a time when loli charas were ‘in’ in Japan and now we see a resurgence of games that feature older women. Just take a look a look at the charas in recent games vs older ones and you notice a trend of most companies making sure that they have all the bases covered by having at least 1 chara to fit a certain sterotypical role.
With over a 100 small and large H game companies out there, it’s impossible for a company to be a jack of all trades and still expect for it be a huge success. Not only is there a practical side to this (since they’ll need to hire different staff to write/draw differnt types of games) by having the same brand try to do many different genres you may alienate some of the fanbase.
Look at Age for instance. They published all of their darker games (the Rasen Kairou) under Will’s ruf label years ago. Now that they have KimiNozo as their flagship game, the fact that Rasen Kairou’s not even on their website saves them a lot of public embarrassment.
Like I said before, the larger companies that do want to keep variety do so by spinning off sister companies and/or by creating more development teams.
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: I'm not sure if I follow you(that message was a bit hard to understand)...but exactly how do people get tired of a company who only release a game every year or so?
I believe he was attempting to make the point that if the whole market is perenially enmeshed in every company having its own niche, you run the risk of stagnation. He seems to have missed the fact that competition is intense and companies go under all the time, and new ones come in.
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: I'm not sure if I follow you(that message was a bit hard to understand)...but exactly how do people get tired of a company who only release a game every year or so?
Because even if it is not you per say people are already saying they are tired of certain types of games by certain companies.
To sum up the above message plan for the future don't focus only on the present, the idea to say "well it's only a few companies and only one a month" means focus on the present only not the future. There is enough variety out there that I cannot believe some push for more variety could not and cannot be made by at least one of the companies.
People are also saying they are getting tired of light games, the romance comedy and I don't see those being chured out even once a month.
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: Any change in peoples tastes usually have to to do with the types of characters present in games...not the genres themselves. There was a time when loli charas were 'in' in Japan and now we see a resurgence of games that feature older women. Just take a look a look at the charas in recent games vs older ones and you notice a trend of most companies making sure that they have all the bases covered by having at least 1 chara to fit a certain sterotypical role.
But for the most part characters fit certain genres only, I mean you won't see an older woman as a student in a high school, but you would/could what people consider a loli character, I mean they might try bringing in a kid who is the "next Edison" or something but they won't see an older woman as an option unless it is a "go for the nurse or teacher" plot. So as I see it the genre creates the characters more so then the other way around. When people tire of a genre or characters they get new characters in a new genre, not just new characters.
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: With over a 100 small and large H game companies out there, it's impossible for a company to be a jack of all trades and still expect for it be a huge success. Not only is there a practical side to this (since they'll need to hire different staff to write/draw differnt types of games) by having the same brand try to do many different genres you may alienate some of the fanbase.
Being a jack of all trades is different then what I am saying, you have a primary one you release if you release four games a year you make one of the something different, if you release 200 games a year you make 50 of them something different. Enough difference that it shows but not so much that you are taxing your resources to the point you tick off your loyal fans.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-04-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Nandemonai: I believe he was attempting to make the point that if the whole market is perenially enmeshed in every company having its own niche, you run the risk of stagnation. He seems to have missed the fact that competition is intense and companies go under all the time, and new ones come in.
There will not always be new, and yes some do go under all the time but ask why those that go under all the time do, and would they not go under all the time by not being a niche company, that is would not being one keep them afloat, that is what no one else seems to consider, and even if it is a possibility then it is a valid point which I made in that post.
It seems too you discount stagnation as being a problem, even if it causes some companies to go bankrupt? Also it is more those outside Japan who are getting the games right now I am more concerned with since we can count those here on one hand. They cannot fully control variety I know that, but stagnation of the market here is a much larger problem.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-04-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: Look at Age for instance. They published all of their darker games (the Rasen Kairou) under Will's ruf label years ago. Now that they have KimiNozo as their flagship game, the fact that Rasen Kairou's not even on their website saves them a lot of public embarrassment.
The Rasen Kairou games were made by Age, not will!? <_<;
You seem to be forgetting that that’s not how the gaming industry works. Tell me how many DEVELOPMENT teams in any gaming company make more than 1 totally different genre? Square specializes in RPGs, Id makes 1st person shooters, Blizzard with RTS games, Namco is best known for their fighters, and so on.
The reason for this is simple:They know what they’re good at, and so does the consumers.
While the larger companies (Capcom, Konami, and heck, even Namco) do have games from other genres, if you look at the credits you see that they’re from different development teams. Even if you argue for Blizzard’s Diablo vs Starcraft/Warcraft, you notice that they’re developed at different areas by different teams.
Since most Japanese PC developers don’t have the kind of capital that the console makers do, they’re, for the most part, forced into specializing in a certain field with a fairly small development staff.
While people are going to get tired of a certain genre sooner or later but you seem to be forgetting to factor in the number of companies that are at play in the H game market. If a person is sick of a certain company’s games , he/she will buy games from another company. Meanwhile other consumers that are sick of another company will buy theirs. It’s as simple as that.
You can’t seriously expect a PC developer to chase after every single potential customer, and as long as a market exists for a certain niche, they’ll continue making those type of games. Of course, demand for certain kinds of games have fallen quite a bit (FMV based games in particular) so in those cases it might be wise for the company to do something else.
You make examples of a company that releases 4 games a year or 200…but such H game companies don’t even exist. The only exception I can think of is Alicesoft, which is
A)A fairly large company that has more than 1 development team
and
B)Their business depends on 1 major release every year supplmented by a number of cheap releases every couple of months (the 2800 yen game series)…which is only possible because they are a large, successful company and because they can cut a lot of corners on the cheap games (Length, # of CGs, etc).
That’s not to say that the games a company makes are always exactly the same…but for the most part, they seldem go far from their roots.
To qualify what I said though, depending on what the company is pushing to stand out (a certain artist, writer) you will see games by the same company that are of different genres…so you do get some variety here and there. Then again, if you have a main artist that only draws cute characters, you’ll rarely see that company make very dark games (with exceptions, of course).
…and yes, Age developed Rasen Kairou 1 and 2. If you compare Rasen Kairou 2 to either Mav Luv or KimiNozo, you’ll notice that they’re using the same AVG engine and the same main artist They probably decided to publish through the Ruf label because it’s so much different from their usual fare
[This message has been edited by Ex-S Woo (edited 08-05-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: ...and yes, Age developed Rasen Kairou 1 and 2. If you compare Rasen Kairou 2 to either Mav Luv or KimiNozo, you'll notice that they're using the same AVG engine and the same main artist [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] They probably decided to publish through the Ruf label because it's so much different from their usual fare [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Ex-S Woo (edited 08-05-2004).]
I see... Well, I was just wondering since I ordered Rasen Kairou 2 from Japan since some time ago (althrough it has not yet reached me) and as far as I knew they were made by will, so I'm a little surpised by hearing they weren't made by Will.. <_<.
[This message has been edited by Spectator Beholder (edited 08-05-2004).]
To SCDawg or everyone : I’m sorry that my languange or manner kinda rude, but believe me there is no mean action behind my manner. And about the word “dude” or “man” it’s kind of languange trait in my place so please don’t take it seriously.
To SCDawg or everyone : I’m sorry that my languange or manner kinda rude, but believe me there is no mean action behind my manner. And about the word “dude” or “man” it’s kind of languange trait in my place so please don’t take it seriously.
quote:Originally posted by Spectator Beholder: I see... Well, I was just wondering since I ordered Rasen Kairou 2 from Japan since some time ago (althrough it has not yet reached me) and as far as I knew they were made by will, so I'm a little surpised by hearing they weren't made by Will.. <_<.
Well, Will is more of a major publishing company (much like Hobibox) than anything else...they have 5-6 companies under their belt that they own, including Guilty and ruf...so technically, Will doesn't make any of their games [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: You seem to be forgetting that that's not how the gaming industry works. Tell me how many DEVELOPMENT teams in any gaming company make more than 1 totally different genre? Square specializes in RPGs, Id makes 1st person shooters, Blizzard with RTS games, Namco is best known for their fighters, and so on.
Then that's another problem, have a sort of team you can scramble mix development teams since no company has only one that would foolish. Take people good at backgrounds or something and place them with people good at characters, then one good with stories, then one good with plots etc. If my understanding of development team is right they don't write the stories they mostly program them, so in theory a good team should be able to DEVELOP ANYTHING they are given in terms of story, a niche team can only do one.
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: To qualify what I said though, depending on what the company is pushing to stand out (a certain artist, writer) you will see games by the same company that are of different genres...so you do get some variety here and there. Then again, if you have a main artist that only draws cute characters, you'll rarely see that company make very dark games (with exceptions, of course).
Even with cute characters it may come off funny, in any setting but dark, but I am sure you could pull off different games that cute characters might not normally be in, and still make it seem good, if not a comedy hit, untentionally.
I understand some business from my own classes and helping at a local Department of Labor which had classes on this stuff, and everything I was taught says never ever have people that are so specialized, not within one field but within a niche within that one field, they can do nothing but one small thing within a field, such as draw cute characters, get experts but experts that can at least do two things within that field, such as draw say cute characters and very realsitic Nosferatu.
So that is why I still say they must have deservity, markets rarely thrive on everything being the same at least for long, and especially not the fickle American Market, which has yet to even be established.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-05-2004).]
quote:Originally posted by Ex-S Woo: Well, Will is more of a major publishing company (much like Hobibox) than anything else...they have 5-6 companies under their belt that they own, including Guilty and ruf...so technically, Will doesn't make any of their games [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Yeah, I know [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]. Still, one wonders why ruf would take the credit for the games like that? Hmm... Well, I've heard that the Rasen Kairou games are pretty good, so I imagine that Ruf's reputation got boosed quite a bit by this ;p. And it wouldn't be the first time that one of the albels of Will has released a game where much of the work was done by another company...
quote:Originally posted by Spectator Beholder: And it wouldn't be the first time that one of the albels of Will has released a game where much of the work was done by another company...
Do you just think of the Oyajis? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
quote:Take people good at backgrounds or something and place them with people good at characters, then one good with stories, then one good with plots etc. If my understanding of development team is right they don't write the stories they mostly program them, so in theory a good team should be able to DEVELOP ANYTHING they are given in terms of story, a niche team can only do one.
Have you ever seen what the game development process entails? First of all, it takes time and money for a team to "switch gears" to do something different, which basically means that two teams each doing separate genres will produce more than two teams which alternate between two genres. Basically it's the same concept that makes assembly-line production more efficient than whole-unit construction--it's more cost-effective and time-effective to have one guy drill holes, and one guy screw in bolts, etc., than it is to have your workers trained in the full assembly process.
quote:A good example of a game that has it's followers, which are very loyal, but outside of them seems to be becoming somewhat of a joke and with each one I keep waiting for someone to parody the Simpsons joke of Star Trek XII: So Very Tired.
It's no use, Cap'n! I'm too fat tae reach th' control panel! ^_^
quote:Originally posted by Unicorn: Do you just think of the Oyajis? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
No, no... If you must know, I was thinking of Kairaku. It was made by flying Shrine and Rouge (as far as I know, anyway), but it was the Rouge-label it got released under...
quote:Originally posted by ijuin_kun: Have you ever seen what the game development process entails? First of all, it takes time and money for a team to "switch gears" to do something different, which basically means that two teams each doing separate genres will produce more than two teams which alternate between two genres. Basically it's the same concept that makes assembly-line production more efficient than whole-unit construction--it's more cost-effective and time-effective to have one guy drill holes, and one guy screw in bolts, etc., than it is to have your workers trained in the full assembly process.^
Yes I have heard of the programming and I have heard that a lot can be interchanged very easily if you have them on your staff so give no more money, and give them very little time, but some to show 'you care'.
But you know, if people are suckers and say "well it takes time and money to switch gears" then people will demand both, people will always take anything you want to give them that favors them and somehow prove a need even if it is not a need. I honestly think since they are already working for the company if you give them neither more time or money to make a switch, they can do it very quickly since it is basically the same work just switching gears to another story and plot.
Both of us also know what is most efficient is not always what is cheapest or best. If you have one of drilling holes guys that can fill in for one of the screw the bolts guy when he goes out sick, then you don't need to spend more money hiring temps or hiring new employees. Also if you believe in Marx overspecialization to that extent makes the worker feel distant from their job to the point they start not to give a crap. I would rather have something made less efficiently by a tag team rotation then one guy that drills holes all day long.
Besides if we are talking assembly lines I had thought the Japanese companies did not follow that fix position only, that most of them had workers experience all aspects of the company so they did not become mere drones, is that not true, does that not apply here?
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-06-2004).]
No…it doesn’t really work like that. Try studying Software Engineering if you really to argue how programming is different from a typical job (i.e, the more people you throw at a programming job, the slower it tends to go).
Of course, in H games the limiting factor is usally the artists and the writers than the programmers. You only need programmers to make the engine and the scripting language that the game will be developed in…so they’re pretty versatile as a group (although its a different story if we’re talking abut 3D programming , AI, physics, etc…but H games are pretty simple games from a programming perspective).
However, certain writers only write certain types of stories well…and certain artists only draw certain types of scenes well.
Much like how you wuoldn’t want Dr. Seuss to do rape games, it’s unreasonable to expect artists to do all types of CGs to the same level of quality/appeal that they can do to the types that they’re good at. Although there are a number of artists who can do drawings that are both cute and erotic, in most cases they’d need to hire more people to work on their games…which again poses problems.
Although there are a number of well known artsts that do Freelance work for H game companies (CARNELIAN comes to mind), part of the things that a company relies on is the exclusiveness of their main artists…so they’re not going to be hiring them on a job-to-job basis. Since that means that they can’t really expand to new genres without hiring a lot more staff…you see most H game companies stuck in a position of only being able to do certain genres until they have a breakaway sucess that allows them to expand into other areas. That’s why you see a lot of H games companies stuggle for 5-6 years and then slowly expand if they’re successful enough…the ones that don’t tend to die a slow, painful death.
quote:Originally posted by SCDawg: Yes I have heard of the programming and I have heard that a lot can be interchanged very easily if you have them on your staff so give no more money, and give them very little time, but some to show 'you care'. [This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 08-06-2004).]
