You want to know who is to blame?

Alot of you people make it sound like G-Collections and Peach Princess abandoned and betrayed us just because they put the Virtual Mate lock on the games and that this does more harm then good and alienates their customers but really they just latched on to the most effective copying block available to them to protect themselves.

There are problems with it.
Without help you can only install the game on three machines.
You need an internet connection however faint whenever you play the game.
We and our hacker sisters and brothers inn the world hate to be slowed down or locked out. Inn essence we hate being outsmarted.
Some people report crashes.
If virtual-mate or the game companies ever goes out of business the games are useless without patches.
Those are negligible.

Do you want someone to blame for this? then blame me and blame yourselves. if you have ever pirated music or games or any computer program or book you have helped to make this necessary.

Piracy started with music, then grew to movies, games, books, everything. you name it we can download it. you may not pirate the games longer then seeing if you like them enough to buy but you contribute to it.

You say you will stop buying the games you love, that you will boycott them just for having the guts to stop our kind from knocking them down more and more. If you do you are hurting yourself and sulking like a little child.

Get over it.

ella

------------------
Please visit www.ladylita.com for a magical experience.

Piracy is just an excuse companies give to cover up their own business failures and it’s getting tiresome hearing it. If GCol or PP close their doors it’s not because of piracy but because they weren’t good in that ‘business’. End of story.

And yet another apocalypse has arrived!

O well there is always the japanese bishoujo market which is readily available for all our needs.

quote:
Originally posted by ellajane:
You say you will stop buying the games you love, that you will boycott them just for having the guts to stop our kind from knocking them down more and more.

Nope!
I simply don't buy a game because I know that my system doesn't fulfill its technical requirements.

Buying the game with that knowledge would be simply... stupid!

quote:
Originally posted by ellajane:
Do you want someone to blame for this? then blame me and blame yourselves. if you have ever pirated music or games or any computer program or book you have helped to make this necessary.

Bah, I'm tired of hearing this tired old speal. This isn't about piracy. If it was, the system could be easily stripped down so that most people wouldn't be complaining anymore. The system has more limits than required to simply serve as an anti-piracy measure. THAT's the problem. Simply allowing the game to be deregistered and reregistered under one username at any given time would solve all of MY issues (except for the possibility of "coasterization" when the company goes out of business), and likely most other peoples' issues as well. The game could be sold. If the 3-computer limit ran out due to upgrades, you'd just quickly reregister the game and you'd be set (after all, not too many people need to run the game on more than 3 computers simultaneously). The game could still only be played on 3 computers simultaneously, so the anti-piracy function would be unhindered.

But no, we haven't seen such a modification. Why? Because they don't want us to be able to sell the games! Furthermore, for some still unknown reason V-mate likes to run in the background of a game after it has made the connection and is thus no longer needed. Closing it crashes the game. Disconnecting from the Internet destabilizes the game. Sounds suspicious, no? It doesn't bother me overly much personally...but I would like an explanation. I'd like to know why I'm being monitored and for what purpose.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 04-19-2005).]

quote:
Originally posted by ellajane:

There are problems with it.
Without help you can only install the game on three machines.
You need an internet connection however faint whenever you play the game.
We and our hacker sisters and brothers inn the world hate to be slowed down or locked out. Inn essence we hate being outsmarted.
Some people report crashes.
If virtual-mate or the game companies ever goes out of business the games are useless without patches.
Those are negligible.

I dispute your statement that crashing, locking the use of the games to hardware (which is likely to change often if you keep your PC fairly up to date), and the potential for my $40 purchase to turn into a coaster are negligible problems. I don't like to burn money but this system provides several ways in which I could be doing that if I bought into it. No other major copy protection scheme limits the software to the hardware in the way VM does with the exception of Windows product activation, but even that is much less restrictive and that is for an OS not a game. Also no other scheme apart from Steam ( which is more than copy protection anyway) requires a log in every time it is played, but AFAIK Steam doesn't limit the game to fixed hardware. Given the presence of cracks for VM games it doesn't seem to really stop pirates either does it?

quote:
Originally posted by ellajane:
Do you want someone to blame for this? then blame me and blame yourselves. if you have ever pirated music or games or any computer program or book you have helped to make this necessary.

Er, no. It is not the customers fault for objecting to a worthless invasive copy protection scheme that does nothing but inconvenience them, make their purchase likely have a limited life, and in certain cases prevent them from playing the game period. Without our support the English bishoujo game market would not have lasted this long, yet we seem to be ignored. As has already been said by people in other threads, stopping pirates alone will not help bring more paying customers into bishoujo gaming. For a variety of reasons most pirates will not buy stuff they cannot get for free, which is abundently clear when looking at the attitudes of a lot of H-anime fans, who have some crossover with B-game fans. If it's free they will download it, if not well that's too bad. It is unlikely that stopping pirates will drastically increase B-game sales, yet VM can be cracked anyway and therefore not stop the pirates. So what is the point of it and why should we support a system that causes problems for noone apart from us legitimate customers? My money can be better spent where I feel that customer loyalty is treated with more respect.

[This message has been edited by dco_chris (edited 04-19-2005).]

I think people have a problem looking at both sides of the issue. Peach Princess, as a serious company, simply CAN’T ignore piracy. Not just because of the loss of sales, but out of respect for their paying customers and the original creators. Not trying to do anything is the same as telling paying customers “we don’t care if people get our stuff for free so long as YOU pay for it”. And secondly, it’s the same as telling the original copyright holders “we don’t care that your software is flying all over the world for free and robbing you of your rightful royalty income”.

If Peach Princess don’t try to protect their releases they might sooner or later find themselves without games to translate, as the original creators will get fed up with their inability to prevent the huge (in corporate eyes) loss of potential income. Do you SERIOUSLY think companies will license their best games for translation while piracy is as rampant as it is? Current scale piracy might not hurt small titles all that much (though it does), but think about giant titles like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien with huge market potential, especially if/when the anime makes its tour in the western world. No company in their right mind would license the game when they see the number of pirated ero-games far exceeding the legally sold ones.

Yes, some customers are inconvenienced by this protection, but that’s what it’s like in the entire society. Your tax money is funding law enforcement and legal system because some people can’t obey the law. What if the police arrest you on suspicion of a crime you didn’t commit (and you’re later found innocent because the justice system works)? Would you then rather it was shut down? “We can’t prevent all crime anyway, so we might as well stop trying and stop wasting people’s tax money”? I know it’s a stretch comparing those two things, but they have something in common:

It’s there ultimately for everyones benefit, even if it’s inconvenient. Because some people can’t obey the law, the ones who actually do are also affected by the measures that needs to be taken. It’s weird using a phrase like “the greater good” when talking about ero-games, but in essence that’s exactly what it is. If Peach Princess can’t do something to curb piracy, it could very well mean their end, and also the end of translated ero-games for years to come. Which I’m sure no one really wants, not even the V-Mate incapable people who maybe a few months or a year from now will be able to play these games, either due to the protection system being refined and revised, or a change in their accessibility to an internet connection.

No one expects people who don’t like or can’t use V-Mate to appreciate it, but if it’s a choice between that protection or no ero-games at all, the remaining customers who CAN use V-Mate will have to get priority. It’s not going to stop piracy 100%, but it sends a signal to both creators and customers of these games that Peach Princess is doing what they can to stop piracy and create a system that is as fair as possible to everyone. Turning a blind eye towards piracy is a grave injustice to every paying customer, while V-Mate might be an “injustice” to a select few of them.

Meh, I’ve ranted enough now.

[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 04-19-2005).]


quote:

Piracy started with music

… which just shows that you don’t have ANY idea what you’re talking about. Did you have a computer 20 years ago? Guess what was being traded then? GAMES. NOT MUSIC.

I’m just young enough that I can’t entirely remember whether I was already being given what we called “black market software” by my parents before the physical INVENTION of the CD or not, but that’s not really important.

Get a clue. Computer software has been copied for as long as computer software has existed. Hasn’t anyone ever played you that lovely educational video “Don’t Copy That Floppy”? And SURPRISE - the industry has never gone out of business.

Anyone who played games in the 80’s probably remembers copy-protection schemes that involved “feelies” - additional items in the box like code wheels, secret maps, etc, that you would have to use in order to play the game. This doesn’t completely prevent piracy - you can always copy the additional information too if you try hard enough - and it occasionally inconveniences real customers - try playing your game when you’ve LOST the stupid fingerprint sheet! - but it slows pirates down and it rewards diehard fans who collect your game and keep all the original materials in a nice box somewhere.

This stuff fell out of favor with the introduction of CD-ROM games. Especially with some stores moving towards selling jewel-case-only (or dvd-sized case only) games, any information that wouldn’t fit into a tiny CD insert often had to be tossed out. Not many games even have manuals anymore.

But please, don’t start writing “YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!” rants when you don’t actually know anything about the problem.


quote:

Yes, some customers are inconvenienced by this protection, but that’s what it’s like in the entire society. Your tax money is funding law enforcement and legal system because some people can’t obey the law. What if the police arrest you on suspicion of a crime you didn’t commit (and you’re later found innocent because the justice system works)? Would you then rather it was shut down? "We can’t prevent all crime anyway, so we might as well stop trying and stop wasting people’s tax money"

Yeah, it’s a stretch to compare these things… but you’re about to find out that I’ve got political convictions as well.

When the justice system DOESN’T work, when your government decides it’s a great idea to lock people up indefinitely WITHOUT any recourse to justice/a trial/lawyers and without having to have any evidence other than “You might be a PIRATE/TERRORIST/COMMUNIST/HOMOSEXUAL!!!” … then it’s time to leave the country.

It IS a similar issue, indeed. There HAS to be a balance between “protecting” the public and protecting civil liberties. And there are crazy trends in both cases of people trying to seize power by playing up the huge nebulous THREAT that the public MUST be protected from…

There’s some brilliant documentaries on the rise of the neo-cons I could recommend to you.

quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
Meh, I've ranted enough now.

Actually, that post makes a lot of sense to me and was definitely not much ranting.

Of course, I don't appreciate the implementation of V-Mate myself because it locks me out from new releases, but I also understand its necessity.

And as for the "crackability" of V-Mate:
Well, it is a system that was thought up by humans, so theer is always a possibility for other humans to crack it.
But the question is: would anybody put up the effort that is neccesary for doing it?

I still have to see the first news of a successfully cracked version of any V-Mate-game so far. So, I think we can assume that V-Mate was successful in this regard. And that might have been a good reason for PeaPri to implement this scheme too.

As for the criticisms regarding Peach Princess acting like G-Collections regarding its customers (read: silent treatment):
Well, it never was so that Peter posted here on a daily basis, so we shouldn't expect him to do that now either.
Perhaps, negotiations between Peach Princess and Interlex are still not finished, so no reliable information about the differences between the two "versions" of V-Mate exists. Or at least a few points are still in discussion.

He still talks directly to us, even if it takes a few days. And that is more than we can say about G-C, where the people in charge always hid behind we-know-who.

[This message has been edited by Unicorn (edited 04-19-2005).]

quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
I still have to see the first news of a successfully cracked version of any V-Mate-game so far. So, I think we can assume that V-Mate was successful in this regard. And that might have been a good reason for PeaPri to implement this scheme too.

There are cracks out there for some of the VM games, but I don't have the games so I don't have a clue if they work.


quote:

He still talks directly to us, even if it takes a few days. And that is more than we can say about G-C, where the people in charge always hid behind we-know-who.

Did you get your Peach Princess newsletter today, that cheerfully mentioned the new game but didn’t mention that it was going to be vmate rigged AT ALL?

Yeah.

I unsubscribed.

quote:
Originally posted by papillon:

When the justice system DOESN'T work, when your government decides it's a great idea to lock people up indefinitely WITHOUT any recourse to justice/a trial/lawyers and without having to have any evidence other than "You might be a PIRATE/TERRORIST/COMMUNIST/HOMOSEXUAL!!!!!" ... then it's time to leave the country.

Yes, we got it. you ditched the ol' U.S. of A due to political convictions of some sort. blah blah blah :P


quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
[B]
Get a clue. Computer software has been copied for as long as computer software has existed. Hasn't anyone ever played you that lovely educational video "Don't Copy That Floppy"? And SURPRISE - the industry has never gone out of business.

Anyone who played games in the 80's probably remembers copy-protection schemes that involved "feelies" - additional items in the box like code wheels, secret maps, etc, that you would have to use in order to play the game. This doesn't completely prevent piracy - you can always copy the additional information too if you try hard enough - and it occasionally inconveniences real customers - try playing your game when you've LOST the stupid fingerprint sheet! - but it slows pirates down and it rewards diehard fans who collect your game and keep all the original materials in a nice box somewhere. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

This stuff fell out of favor with the introduction of CD-ROM games. Especially with some stores moving towards selling jewel-case-only (or dvd-sized case only) games, any information that wouldn't fit into a tiny CD insert often had to be tossed out. Not many games even have manuals anymore. [B]


I have the old code wheel somewhere in the basement for the old AD&D games on floppy disk. Does that mean I'm old in your book? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

as far as online piracy is concerned, it didn't really take off until the technology for faster internet service rolled out in the late 90s. Back in the old days of dialup internet service in the early 90s, trading was arranged through bbs and private email, and goods exchanged through the mail. Once it became technologically feasible to download large files through the internet, that's when online piracy became prevalent.

to those who chose to disagree about my post:

byndhrzn,
Piracy is a real threat. Companies like game/film/music expect a few percent of them but when it grows to 10, 20, 30% you have a threat. There are payments to be made.

You need to pay for the copyright holder for the rights to sell a translated copy of the game. then you need translaters. you need the time to translate everything inn to decent english without too many mistakes.
You need to get the cd’s and copy them for distribution. You need the website and maybe a bulletin board. You need people to run and update the website and send out packages. You need money to pay your workers and you need enough copies sold. this is peach princess, g-collections and the others

Piracy inn the aspect of bishoujo games is more harrowing then the music industry or the film industry, this industry has a greater drop inn the percentage of customers because of them.

They have games that are catering to our fetishes. i personally like the lighter side of the emotional spectrum. romance, love, friendship, anigirls(animal girls) that has depth of feeling like those.

Dark Shiki,
But it is about piracy, it is about protecting the game from being copied and distributed illegally. perhaps the system could be altered a bit to be less harsh like you said but it is essentially to stop hackers. icertainly like your idea for the deregister/reregister plan. It is not surprising to me that v-mate stays open though.

dco chris,
you can often find the cause for crashes and correct them, that is why i think it is a negligible problem. i said slow down or lock out.
but it is our fault, we helped create the necessity for the protection systems used. perhaps this is invasive. it is an attempt to slow the hackers and i think it is admirable. it is alot less invasive then what hollywood proposed. a watermark and a mandatory upgrade at your expense so that computers and possibly dvd players could read it and accept or deny on that.

papillon,
computer piracy started with programs and games. music piracy started before then though.
i was five years old twenty years ago but our household started with a computer/atari combo. we did not get our first computer until until the 386 was new.
i do know about the problem of piracy though and that sentiment that you are part of the problem is deserved if you have ever contributed to it inn any way.

to those inn support:
thankyou

It doesn’t matter what they do. There will always be people who find ways around these protections. Its better if they find incenstives for people to want to buy their produts rather than get a copy of the net, like special collectors editions, cheaper prices or other incentives.

People complained that VCRs would put movie companies out of business from piracy, but now a majority of their profits (even with piracy) come from video (now DVD) sales.

quote:

People complained that VCRs would put movie companies out of business from piracy, but now a majority of their profits (even with piracy) come from video (now DVD) sales.

And some companies demanded things like the blank media tax to make UP for their perceived losses from piracy (even though there are legitimate uses for blank media!) and then AFTER getting their money decided to go try and get even more money by suing. Tsk tsk tsk.

quote:

computer piracy started with programs and games. music piracy started before then though.

Bootlegging, you mean? Like when people secretly recorded concerts and then traded the tapes?

... you do know some of those tapes are now considered not just insanely valuable, but really important parts of our cultural history, right? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think anyone is going to say that piracy isn't a problem at all or that piracy never costs sales. Of course it does. But this is a complex issue. Knee-jerk reactions and fearmongering do not adequately address it - and they give the impression that either you aren't thinking or that you have something to hide.

Without illicit copying, many works of art and pieces of history would have been lost. Many games are only now playable due to the work of hackers who can circumvent no-longer-maintained copy protection schemes or rewrite program data so that it will work on something other than the one carefully-timed basement machine it was built on.

Some people think this is a good thing - I have been in discussions with people who honestly think it is better for works to be lost forever than to be viewed without the permission of the creator.

But back to V-Mate.

Many of us have a wide range of complaints with the proposed system - it's not like there's one opinion here. Just as a vague sampler, there's "This sucks because V-Mate games crash on my machine a lot" "This sucks because I think my privacy is being infringed" "This sucks because new games are now unplayable for me" "This sucks because I worry the game will become unplayable for me if V-Mate goes down" "This sucks because my legal right of first sale is being infringed" "This sucks because I now cannot buy these games and give them as gifts to non-internet-using friends to introduce them to the genre" "This sucks because I can't LOAN my game to my friends to introduce them to the genre" "This sucks because I fully expect this will cause the company to collapse and then there will be no more games" ... And probably tons more.

Do you understand that this is not a simple "WAH WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO PIRATE!" response?

quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
"This sucks because I think my privacy is being infringed"
"This sucks because I worry the game will become unplayable for me if V-Mate goes down"
"This sucks because my legal right of first sale is being infringed"

*raises hand*

Peach Princess, like any other companies, will take actions that support its best interests (not its customers’, don’t be so naive).

So don’t stress yourselves out with inner fightings. If you support V-mate, purchase the game. If you don’t, don’t buy it, or pirate it, whatever you want. Words are cheap, act instead of whine.

quote:
Originally posted by xung:
Peach Princess, like any other companies, will take actions that support its best interests (not its customers', don't be so naive).

EXACTLY! THEY WANT TO FULLFIL THEIR INTEREST!
BUT DONT FORGET THAT THEY GET THEIR MONEY FROM US!
AND "I" DONT WANT TO SUPPORT SOMETHING THAT SCREWS WITH ME, THEY CAN HAVE THEIR INTEREST BUT I HAVE MY OWN TOO AND I WANT THOSE FULLFILED TOO!