Well, I hope the departing artists find luck and success. I don’t understand why people would pick on them. Especially if you bought the games! Can you do better? Most people cannot. If you can, why aren’t you?
Now, complaining about the writing… there, you might have a legitimate point.
quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar:
I don't understand why people would pick on them. Especially if you bought the games! Can you do better? Most people cannot. If you can, why aren't you? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
These aren't good arguments. I don't like the art style. Whether I can personally do better is irrelevant. The character designs weren't so bad the first game. But they're so redundant...this is especially obvious in Sagara Family. Of course, if you really like the art style, then the redundancy probably wouldn't bother you. But for someone who didn't particularly like them in the first place...
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 03-07-2005).]
I tend to see the same in mpost artists.
If you dont like someones srtyle much, then the more you see it, the less you will like it.
I:m most disapointed becauswe they were one of the few companies still drawing more mature looking characters, So many companies now day draw these young girlsm and I find it quite annoying personally.
I’m just used to older stuff I guess. 256 color b-games etc,… Just a differen’t time, and different styles.
[This message has been edited by smog (edited 03-08-2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by smog:
I tend to see the same in mpost artists.
If you dont like someones srtyle much, then the more you see it, the less you will like it.I:m most disapointed becauswe they were one of the few companies still drawing more mature looking characters, So many companies now day draw these young girlsm and I find it quite annoying personally.
I'm just used to older stuff I guess. 256 color b-games etc,.. Just a differen't time, and different styles.
[This message has been edited by smog (edited 03-08-2005).]
I do like muto more than yamane, but yamane grew on me through the last few games. Muto is still a much better ariotst imo, but I now really enjoy yamane's art.
Ah heck, I hit quite instead of edit..
Anyways, this game is a remake of a very old zyx game. Should be good.
[This message has been edited by smog (edited 03-08-2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar:
I don't understand why people would pick on them. Especially if you bought the games!
I bought DOR. Explain to me why it is that buying a game means I can't criticize it? (Really, is it a good idea to have the pirates being the only ones allowed to criticize a game?)
quote:
I don't understand why people would pick on them. Especially if you bought the games!
I don't understand that argument either. I would think that only those who got the game are in a position to criticize it. Because, how can you criticize something you don't know?
quote:
Can you do better? Most people cannot. If you can, why aren't you?
Criticizing an art style is a matter of personal taste, mostly. And I don't see how the level of respective person's drawing capability has an influence on said person's taste in art. Criticizing someone else's art is not a right that has to be won by proving your worth as an artist, it's simply an expression of one's opinion. By your train of reasoning we can say that you only have a right of critcizing your government if you are an accomplished politician. See how absurd this can get? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
quote:
Now, complaining about the writing... there, you might have a legitimate point.
So, complaining about literary art is okay, while complaining about graphic art is not?...right.
Honestly, I understand that you're upset when people are criticizing artists you like, but you should remember that this is entirely a matter of opinion. Your opinion of likeing them is not in any way more valid than the opinions of people who don't.
*EDIT* Oops, forgot the only thing which is halfways on topic.
On a sidenote: Have you guys found the Java games on Muramasa Kazuma's homepage? They're fun.
[This message has been edited by Akela (edited 03-09-2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Akela:
I don't understand that argument either. I would think that only those who got the game are in a position to criticize it. Because, how can you criticize something you don't know?
Unlike plot or story, you don't need to play the game to sample the character designs. While I can't be sure that I'd like or dislike the story of Sagara Family (though I might have my suspicions), I can be quite certain that I don't like the character designs, just from looking at the samples.
On the flip side (in response to Darkstar), just because someone buys a game, even if they know exactly what to expect, doesn't mean he or she appreciates every aspect of it. I was never terribly fond of the character designs in Private Nurse, for example. Despite that, I bought the game because I expected a good story. So since I bought it, I'm not entitled anymore to say that I don't like the character designs? What's the logic behind that?
[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 03-09-2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
Unlike plot or story, you don't need to play the game to sample the character designs. [...] I can be quite certain that I don't like the character designs, just from looking at the samples.
Oh yeah, that... You're right, of course. Seems I generalized a bit too much and forgot about the samples. My bad.
(However, the point still stands that possessing the game puts you in a better position for criticizing it, rather than disqualifying you from such criticism.)
It’s perfectly fair to say “I don’t like that art style” or “This art isn’t as good as that art.” (Or to point to MY art and say that I am mediocre, unprofessional, etc. I know. )
What bothers me is when people get really offensively melodramatic about how much something sucks. (Unless you’re Something Awful and it’s your JOB to be rude.) Like when people are talking about S7BZ (which, obviously, isn’t very good) and start going on about how “A crack-addled monkey could make a better animation by painting with its own feces! I would rather gouge out my eyes than watch this!” … at this point I do tend to respond with "Can you do better? If so, please do. If not, STFU."
Everyone’s entitled to an opinion, but there’s no need to be horribly rude about it, especially if you do not yourself possess the skills in question and therefore your ridiculous statements about anyone being able to do better than that are not true.
edit: speaking of girl armor design, here is a character I’m working on for a possible upcoming project - http://irc.wgp.org/users/papillon/asketch2.jpg
[This message has been edited by papillon (edited 03-09-2005).]
…wow. That’s really nice. 
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
edit: speaking of girl armor design, here is a character I'm working on for a possible upcoming project - http://irc.wgp.org/users/papillon/asketch2.jpg
That's...not bad. I think your art is improving. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img] That's super-high-tech armor that molds to your body yet miraculously provides slashing/piercing protection AND shock absorbtion, right? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
That’s why I always say YMMV when I go into graphics. I like Zyx designs, but I also know a lot of people don’t, it’s all just personal taste. I guess I’ll have to nose around the Zyx site to see how the new character designs look.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
These aren't good arguments. I don't like the art style. Whether I can personally do better is irrelevant. The character designs weren't so bad the first game. But...
Actually, if we correctly using the term criticise, then yes, it is an accurate argument. You cannot give real criticism about something if you don't understand how to make a better product. That was what I was saying. If you cannot do better, you cannot truly critisize. Now, that doesn't mean we cannot complain. Just that we cannot criticise. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by Darkstar (edited 03-09-2005).]
I bought a Honda Accord. I cannot criticise the job Honda’s design and build teams did on it, because I could not make a better car. I can complain I don’t like how they did this particular feature, or state how I love how they did these features. But my car design skills are very much inferior to theirs.
As a customer, you can complain how a product didn’t meet your expectations or desires. But to criticise… can you make a better product? Better artwork? Better stories? If you cannot, then you can only state your opinions. If you can… why aren’t you making new b-games for us to play?
My comment about why the members of this community really shouldn’t be complaining about the artwork of a product they bought stems from how it seems most posters here look at whatever is available about a particular b-game. That usually includes a bit of the artwork (Box cover, select manual artwork, select in-game samples). If the artwork is really counter to a poster’s taste, that poster just doesn’t bother with that particular game. This is a generality about this community, so I realize that it won’t hold true for all PeaPri posters. But I think it is more often correct then not.
[This message has been edited by Darkstar (edited 03-10-2005).]
Papillon, wow! Nice work! Got more to show off?
I disagree with your definition of criticism, Darkstar, and I also disagree that you cannot criticise something you could not do better yourself. A dictionary says this about “criticise”:
To express one’s views as to the merit or demerit of; esp., to animadvert upon; to find fault with.
To discuss the merits or demerits of a thing or person; esp., to find fault
I criticise ZyX for making art where the characters are consistently too similar to each other, and not really all that pretty either. I don’t have to be able to do better myself to criticise ZyX, because I know it CAN be done better by others. “Better” is of course in the eye of the beholder here, as it’s a matter of individual taste.
I can criticise anyone who does a job inadequately, even if I cannot personally do better myself. If I am paying someone to fix my car, and my car is actually behaving worse afterwards, it is totally irrelevant that I couldn’t have fixed it by myself. I am paying, so I have every right to criticise the job that has been done when the NORM is far better than what I have gotten.
Not to mention the classic/cliche example of a doctor slipping up during surgery, then asing you if you could do better yourself. It’s not about if you can personally do better, it’s about if you should be able to EXPECT better.
Then again, this is about ZyX art. It’s not really a question of good or bad, but of taste. My main criticism is that nearly all the ZyX characters are too similar. And in that field, I actually CAN do better. I can draw characters that look more diverse than ZyX characters do. They might not have any artistic merit whatsoever beyond looking very different from each other, but at least I can beat ZyX at that.
quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar:
Actually, if we correctly using the term criticise, then yes, it is an accurate argument. You cannot give real criticism about something if you don't understand how to make a better product. That was what I was saying. If you cannot do better, you cannot truly critisize. Now, that doesn't mean we cannot complain. Just that we cannot criticise. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img][This message has been edited by Darkstar (edited 03-09-2005).]
I think you're confusing general "criticism" (as per AG3's definition) with "constructive criticism." This does require a degree of expertise in the area. Even so, even if one could draw "better" (variety aside) than Zyx's character designers, I'm not sure how one could criticize the art constructively. You can teach someone the basics, but you can't really tell someone how to draw better...
You guys can argue all you like about whether complaining is or is not the same thing as “critisizing”, but…
If you tell an artist their work sucks, they just aren’t going to listen to anything else you say. If you tell a musician that you cannot stand her music, again, she isn’t going to listen to you.
Anyone who makes stuff won’t listen to you, if all you have to say is a complaint, or you suggest something “stupid”. Customers love to complain, but rarely have anything useful to suggest.
That’s the difference. If you cannot suggest how to make something better, the maker(s) stop listening to you.
To criticise, therefore, is to suggest how to make something better. To complain is to make noises for your own fun.
It’s human nature. When someone believes they know more about something then you do… for instance, how to draw anime characters, how to program games, how to cook, etc etc etc, they won’t listen to your complaints. They tune that out, and they do it because they know better then you when you aren’t saying anything useful to them.
That’s how it is. It is just how humans work.
More new art is posted on the link, Check it out.
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“His last thought is wry, Not bad for a dead man.” Moon Knight vol.1, #1 (1980)
Thanks for trying to talk about things that matter, Doug. The website says that this new game will go on sale in May. If GC decided to put this in their lineup, we could see it in English sometime this year. Of course, I don’t think they’ll want to put the extra time and money into it when there might not be any extra profit. Although I personally believe that more interactive games are exactly what the English market needs.