C-G's Virtual-Mate?

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#361
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
Err...a Japanese source? Somehow I find the image of nerdy Japanese pirates, sitting at a computer typing away furiously as they methodically hack an English version of their favorite neko-fantasy...comically absurd. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]

Yeah, I realize that wasn't what you meant. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] But what exactly is this Japanese source (assuming they're not pirates themselves)?

If japs pirates managed to pirate their onlike like V-Mate system in two weeks, then i assume those idiots are going to do that in the same time.
Or am i wrong?


[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 10-21-2004).]

#362

Ah, so by Japanese sources you refer to parallel events in Japan. Hmm. Actually, I would think Western pirates would command greater resources, not to mention tenacity (if cultural differences are any indication). Then again, B-games are just a tad less higher profile here than in Japan. I guess it depends how much attention this draws. If Western pirates really applied themselves, they could probably crack it in a matter of days.

I’m not quite sure why I’m discussing this. Personally I don’t have any intention of buying the games based on availablity of a crack. Either G-collections makes this system palatable, or I’m not playing their games. It’s as simple as that.

#363
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
Personally I don't have any intention of buying the games based on availablity of a crack. Either G-collections makes this system palatable, or I'm not playing their games. It's as simple as that.

You will not, me - probably, who knows? - i'll do the same, but those who'll find their way cutted out? What they are going to do? We know piracy is evil. And them? That's whay i'm telling you this is only encouraging piracy. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

#364
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:
Starforce 3 caused problems not only when passive, kmusky. That's why many games that used that S3 are cracked. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

you missed the point. My complaint is that they are treating us all as potential pirates, intead of attacking the pirates themselves

#365
quote:
Originally posted by kmusky:
you missed the point. My complaint is that they are treating us all as potential pirates, intead of attacking the pirates themselves


My apologies. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

#366
quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
...I can't imagine that this is a decision they've made lightly.

I disagree. I don't think they thought about any aspect of this whatsoever. I think they just jumped in head first and broke their necks.

Per Lamunessm, some Japanese companies used this system for awhile and gave up; but even when they were using it they always offered a normally-functioning full-priced version. GC hasn't even done that. In fact they flat out ruled it out. No, I don't think they applied an ounce of brainpower to "forethought".

quote:
Originally posted by AG3:
Their apparent lack of knowledge of the V-Mate system, and lack of forethought when it comes to how this will be used by them, seems to suggest that this is something they haven't really entered wholeheartedly.

Here is what I think happened - this is addressed to everyone who's called them a liar over their flip-flopping.

I don't remember who said this, but "never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence".

I think GC just decided to use the system without considering the consequences. A huge firestorm erupted immediately, and they were taken by surprise. Their immediate response was chaotic and disorganized, to the point where it made things worse rather than better.

Then their response was "we'll put out a patch a year after the sell date". I doubt they considered the implications of this. When they did, they realized they wanted to change it again, so they issued another statement.

I don't think we should take that statement at face value. I don't think we should take ANYthing they say at face value until this whole mess calms down.

Because what they said doesn't make any sense in context. They'll release patches a year after they go out of business? I don't think anyone would find this a believable lie. I just think they were trying to change their position without appearing to, and so they tried to say they "were misinterpreted" rather than they "are backtracking". I also think that (like their first statements) they don't have any idea what they meant, but it certainly is not going to be what they said.

In short, I think we really ought to wait until they make their minds up as to what they ACTUALLY meant, and THEN decide what to do.

#367

Amen.

In the meanwhile, no one has to purchase the game - i hope so.

the fastest they’ll drop sales, the fastest we’ll get rid of this V-mate weirdo.

#368
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
But as it is, G-collections is just inconveniencing all of us (am I wrong?), business ethics aside. G-collections needs to get their act together, or I think they're going to be in for a hard lesson on the pitfalls of making entertainment software user-unfriendly.

I think what irks me most though is that it seems WE have thought more about this issue, its consequences, and possible solutions...than THEY have. Hell, I think a number of us alone have given this more thought than they have.

*shakes head* Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-21-2004).]

Agreed.

You absolutely CAN NOT stumble your way through the dark like this in business. Let me amend that - you can do it, people do it all the time, but they don't do it in public as official company policy, they do it as thought experiments and brainstorming sessions.

If they'd pulled aside some of their better customers (mostly from here) and conducted a focus group, we could have saved them much pain. And ourselves.

But most importantly, this is why bureaucracy is painfully slow. When you go fast, this happens. Had they announced this system was for future titles, but NOT MdNN - say if they'd announced it for their Nov game, now - they'd still get feedback, but they wouldn't have already sent the game to the duplicator's and they'd have enough time to make course corrections without embarrasing themselves. AND they'd have enough time to come up with a REAL plan, and present it as something they'd already thought through.

#369
quote:
Originally posted by kmusky:
The thing that bothers me the most is the blanket condemnation of us all. I wish that they had gone with a system that remains passive until someone tries to crack the code, rather than constantly monitoring legitmate users and invading thier privacy.

That way, only the pirates themselves get hurt.

[This message has been edited by kmusky (edited 10-21-2004).]

I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Unfortunately it's basically undoable.

You don't really want me to go into the details (especially since I only have a vague understanding myself), but as a programmer I can say this is more or less theoretically impossible.

Even people can't always decide if something is or isn't piracy (think Sony v Betamax) and besides which, it changes whenever Congress decides to change the laws. And it's different in every country! It'd be great if all I have to do is tell my computer I live in, say, China, where piracy is completely legal.

#370
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:

Do not try to sell water to a fish, kid.

?

Why not? Works for me...I've sold lots of water to fish. You just have to take theirs first.

#371
quote:
Originally posted by Italicus:

Do not try to sell water to a fish, kid.

Aha. Sorry, but Italian proverbs aren't my strong point, so I can't really connect it to the post I made, which you replied to.

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
I disagree. I don't think they thought about any aspect of this whatsoever. I think they just jumped in head first and broke their necks.

Of course, that's a possibility too. My example simply presumed that they weren't completely incompetent. It's called optimism, or naivety, I'm not quite sure which one anymore [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 10-21-2004).]

#372

Their last announcement was… searching for a word… discarding quite a couple due to language issues… ah yes ridiculuos.

And i am with nandemonai with this one - they don’t seem to have thought this through, thought about it or even to have thought vaguely in the direction. At all.

They didn’t even have someone monitoring the boards at this time - they had to call Vaga42Bond to work at his free day.
I do not understand how it could be possible but all the evidence are there. Even their
announcement
quote: "Virtual-Mate account and password will be used when you install and register a game. When you start the game, it will automatically connect to Virtual Mate, and you do NOT need to enter a password or username.
We decided to use this system to make a fair game distribution, especialy for fans visiting here. To continue making Bishojo games in English, we need to have a healthy and fair distribution, and Virtual-Mate is necessary to achieve it. We spent a lot of money, time and effort for this, and we will lower the price!!! Please try our new system. Upon using it, we are confident you will enjoy this system!"
sounds as a plea of a very confused management.
And this patch/no patch announcements…
sigh…
I sincerely hope for them to put their act together. I still think this whole system is a big, big mistake, but if they really WILL release a patch, at acceptable time - an year after the DAY OF RELEASE at most - it would - maybe - be enough to dampen the effects of this “feature”. And i think many of us (i mean the “no way”-camp) would shift 1 or 2 notches towards buying.
Well i hope there will be a solution, and i really hope G-C is not breaking his own back (and neck) with this feature.
Hope is a wonderful thing.
It always dies last.

#373
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
The problem is, the "silent majority" probably don't have access to the same information as us. They'll buy the game, find out that they've been "had" only after the fact, and will never buy G-collections games again (or maybe any B-games for that matter). Thus initial sales might not even be affected. (...) If customers react like most of us have, G-collections will already have lost the majority of its regular customers for good by the time the sales figures starting taking a hit. That's why I'm puzzled G-collections is still going ahead with this at full steam. They're either very confident (because they know something we don't), or very foolish. For their own sake, it better be the former.

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-21-2004).]

What is really a problem is no one knows where the "silent majority" truly stands or even where some of them might stand since they are silent. For all we know there could be a large number of people that do not have internet access to post things and "yell" as loud as those of us here, but nonetheless know of this from friends and stand against it. It just seems to be a general assumption the "silent majority" doesn't know about (or supports) V-Mate because they have not spoken out.

That's partly why I agree with you, it is a very odd decision on G-Collections part to go ahead with V-Mate, assuming they don't have knowledge we lack, and assuming they don't have some safety net we are unaware of which could save them even if this game flops with V-Mate attached. That said I really don't think it is a safe assumption to think the silent majority either does not know of this or is for it or even a majority of them are for it or do not know about it and will buy the game.

But you're right it might take them a while to see the hit, but then again if they are not smart enough to expect a hit, and a fair sized one at least from a bulk of their "regulars", they really aren't paying attention to those on this and who knows what other boards expressing dislike of V-Mate.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-21-2004).]

#374
quote:
Originally posted by Tenchi:
Their last announcement was... searching for a word... discarding quite a couple due to language issues... ah yes ridiculuos.

And i am with nandemonai with this one - they don't seem to have thought this through, thought about it or even to have thought vaguely in the direction. At all.

They didn't even have someone monitoring the boards at this time - they had to call Vaga42Bond to work at his free day.

They DID have someone monitoring the boards... they had a lot of someones, actually. What was needed was someone who wouldn't automatically get pelted with rotting vegetables and dead wombats just for showing up on both the GC and PP BBS.

One of the little problems is that Virtual-Mate is realitively old in Japan, but fairly new in the US. Any new system rollout's gonna be a bit confusing and messy, and they simply needed someone who knows you people, because I was, and still am in a way one of you people.

If you want to know, yes I've brought up the complaints, and critisims, abit heavily edited, because there have been points where good points have been made, but with bad civility, which might cause them to get overlooked. They are, to a point, being looked at and addressed as much as can be, given that we're also working on FOUR games right now ("Let's Meow Meow", "Hitomi -My StepSister", "Pick Me Honey", and "Sagara(working title)") (At least, as far as you know it's four games. /giggles manically like the Joker.)

Is it a perfect system? Never said it was going to be. Is it a good system? How would I know, I've never used it till a few days ago, and I haven't had time to test it out fully. (Not my job to do that, anyway. I'm doing this for you people, you hear?) It's a new system, and that's all I know, and until it's actually used and tested, I'm not going to judge it. I have my own thoughts and opinions on it of course, but that's not going to be told either. If I say I'm for it or against it, it ruins what objectivity I can bring around the boards.

#375
quote:
Originally posted by Vaga42Bond:
(...) Is it a good system? How would I know, I've never used it till a few days ago, and I haven't had time to test it out fully. (Not my job to do that, anyway. I'm doing this for you people, you hear?) It's a new system, and that's all I know, and until it's actually used and tested, I'm not going to judge it. I have my own thoughts and opinions on it of course, but that's not going to be told either. If I say I'm for it or against it, it ruins what objectivity I can bring around the boards.

First then, will you tell us what you can once you have tested it, or at least what you can in a way that allows you to keep some objectivity?

Second objectivity is great, but it might be helpful for us to know if the decision, that is those in favor and or agaisnt this this, are merely at the top, or all over the company.

If it is merely those at the top who favor this, the hope for good news is perhaps gone for this game but greater for the next few games since those at the top care about the customer and unquestionably the money they might lose through use of this system, but they also care the money they spent on this idea which likely means come flood of support or drought of sales they will make sure it gets tried at least once without any promise of a patch, or way around it in the future. At least in my opinion and might fall into the general you don't voice your side just the way the tide is going, yet again perhaps this is about something you cannot or will not address.

Also you are probably right that they would have been attacked, but they still didn't choose the best method I think by making you the sacrificial lamb armed with little information beyond what they had already released. To me it just does not make them look any better.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-21-2004).]

#376
quote:
Originally posted by Vaga42Bond:
They are, to a point, being looked at and addressed as much as can be, given that we're also working on FOUR games right now ("Let's Meow Meow", "Hitomi -My StepSister", "Pick Me Honey", and "Sagara(working title)")

This is, essentially, why I decided to cut you some slack. After GC has enough time to think about this, and I mean really think about it, as opposed to make a series of 'panic mode' announcements that make things murkier and are contradictory, THEN I will form an opinion.

#377

(tiny side comment) everyone is at least a little inconvenienced, even those of us with always-on broadband who want to play the games on that broadband pc, as I explained earlier. net connection on the fritz for the day = no game? Pout.

Some games with server verification automatically skip that step if the server can’t be reached… (Neverwinter Nights does. If you’re trying to run a LAN game and have no internet, it will search for the network and then eventually realise it’s not there and let you go on.)

#378
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
Some games with server verification automatically skip that step if the server can't be reached... (Neverwinter Nights does. If you're trying to run a LAN game and have no internet, it will search for the network and then eventually realise it's not there and let you go on.)

Which is something they would not announce but would be nice to know about and in about 4 days if that does work it will likely be known anyway, so here's hoping for some good news maybe along those lines.

#379

Copy protection that can be circumvented by disconnecting from the Internet is trivial, and I can’t imagine any company expending the effort to do such a thing.

Then again, I wouldn’t’ve thought GC would handle this as badly as they have, either.

#380
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
What is really a problem is no one knows where the "silent majority" truly stands or even where some of them might stand since they are silent. For all we know there could be a large number of people that do not have internet access to post things and "yell" as loud as those of us here, but nonetheless know of this from friends and stand against it. It just seems to be a general assumption the "silent majority" doesn't know about (or supports) V-Mate because they have not spoken out.

I think you underestimate the utter obliviousness of the common person when it comes to computer technology. The common person simply isn't aware of anti-piracy measures and their implications, at least on more than a superficial level. When he buys software, he just assumes that it will install and work. He probably doesn't pay attention to much besides the synopsis and cg when shopping for a game, and seeing how the current description of V-mate is completely ambiguous, he won't realize what he is getting himself into. He won't realize until the game arrives and suddenly he's forced to register to his game on the Internet. He might have reservations, but let's assume he's the average American and has a modem (I'm fairly sure this is the most common connection method in the U.S. nowadays) and is actually able to register. Okay, done with registration. He disconnects and starts the game. The game says he needs a connection to start the game. WTF?! He connects, starts the game, disconnects, and plays for a while. Next day, he tries to start the game and the same message appears. WTF?! Already he is irritated, and he'll think twice before buying another one of these games. He finishes the game, and let's say he's the type that sells his games. Americans are pretty funny when it comes to this stuff, so he'll probably do it in the most impersonal way possible...over the Internet. He sells his game, and a week later his irate buyer contacts him and tells him that he needs the guy's username and password to play. WTF?! At this point, our seller is likely going to investigate the matter, probably through G-collections customer support. He learns that he must indeed fork over his username and password to his buyer. At this point, he's pissed beyond belief. He's being forced to give out sensitive information to a complete stranger now, which goes completely in the face of the protection of privacy code that Americans hold so dear. Even if he's smart enough to change his password to something unrelated to his other important passwords, he's outraged at this personal insult. He'll never buy one of these ridiculous swindles that they call a "game" again.

Believe me, this isn't as far-fetched as you might think. My roommate uses a computer regularly, and he's familiar enough with them to use P2P software on a regular basis. By the same token, he was unaware that an active subscription for anti-virus software was actually required for it to work. He went a year with expired anti-virus software, and considered his computer "protected." 2500 viruses debunked that comfortable little theory (I gave him a free virus scan out of pity for his ignorance). This roommate of mine is probably above-average in computer know-how, I'd say...

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-21-2004).]