… downloading is better than buying physical bootlegs. downloaders have a much higher rate of actually buying the thing legally than people who bought it illegally and are not exactly likely to pay AGAIN. afaik. that doesn’t mean downloading is GOOD.
… downloading is also a LOT better than SELLING physical bootlegs, which makes you utterly unethical scum.
quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
... downloading *is* better than buying physical bootlegs. downloaders have a much higher rate of actually buying the thing legally than people who bought it illegally and are not exactly likely to pay AGAIN. afaik. that doesn't mean downloading is GOOD. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]... downloading is also a LOT better than SELLING physical bootlegs, which makes you utterly unethical scum. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Back to this again, eh? I think we've made our point. No need to beat it into the ground. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Hmm...a hierarchy, huh. I suppose that would explain G-collection's complete inability to do more than sputter incoherently. But as stated before, it doesn't excuse such a rash business decision. They should have probed public opinion first with discussions or polls, or at least have announced this before the game went to the presses. Who exactly was the genius who thought the English and Japanese markets were so analagous that the system wouldn't make any more waves here than it did in Japan? Westerners are MUCH more sensitive when it comes to policies perceived to infringe on their property or privacy rights. Come on, people even bitch about non-identifiable information being collected without their explicit consent for survey purposes! And you think they're going to consent to giving out their passwords when they want to sell something?! Even in Japan, they sold two versions when these V-mate clones were used. Did they somehow think the Western market would be more accomodating?
Well, I was hoping that GC would clarify when and how the patch would be released, if ever. Since they didn’t do that, and reading between the lines says no patch will likely ever be released, it looks like I’m now back in the “no way Jose” camp. What a damn shame.
Hey G-C guys! Whoever’s pulling the strings out there, tell them this VM idea will go over about as well as a lead balloon here in the States! Get a clue, things are different here than in Japan and Westerners look at things like this differently.
I don’t speak Japanese or have any Japanese friends, but I have been to Japan 3 times and worked with Japanese people over a 6-year period, so I have some insight into their mindset.
EDIT: I hope this didn’t come off sounding like a “some of my best friends are black” type of argument.
[This message has been edited by Nameless Mofo (edited 10-22-2004).]
quote:That is excatly my fear and goes with the idea of giving them carte blanche to do it again by supporting them (even while hating V-Mate) but supporting them because they are one of the only companies releasing these games in English.
Originally posted by Unicorn:
Someone who pulled such a series of stunts and got away with it will do a similar thing again - sooner or later.
Sadly by supporting them to ensure they stay in business even when hating V-Mate, it is as you said letting them get away with it, so the question becomes what is next? More importantly can we trust whatever they say about patches and ways to please those that don't like this?
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Unicorn:
[b] Someone who pulled such a series of stunts and got away with it will do a similar thing again - sooner or later. That is excatly my fear and goes with the idea of giving them carte blanche to do it again by supporting them (even while hating V-Mate) but supporting them because they are one of the only companies releasing these games in English.Sadly by supporting them to ensure they stay in business even when hating V-Mate, it is as you said letting them get away with it, so the question becomes what is next? More importantly can we trust whatever they say about patches and ways to please those that don't like this?
You went back to my idea, SCW. Better boycot then supporting them in the effort of making V-Mate a widespread method for fighting piracy. Another way is possible!
[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 10-22-2004).]
[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 10-22-2004).]
quote:But once again after pulling this stunt and the "one year later" patch stunt, are you still winningly to trust them?
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
But as long as they get their act together in, say, a week or so - I'll be willing to say "well, they made an ill-considered decision and backed away from it chaotically". And forget about it. They don't have a LOT of time, here, but they've got some...
Sure they were in chaos when they made and retracted that statement but at the same time, they did lie, they did not take time to come to a quick decision, and as of now are still leaving us waiting. Can you trust that whatever they say tomorrow will not be changed in a week or a months time?
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Can you trust that whatever they say tomorrow will not be changed in a week or a months time?
My answer is a simple, plain, big, NO I CAN'T TRUST THEM ANYMORE.
quote:Or at the very least trust those at their U.S. Office who know this culture a lot better then they (the home office in Japan) have demonstrated. The U.S. office had a great solution and one that pleased a lot of people, when it got taken back I think G-collections lost a lot more support on a lot more permanent basis.
Originally posted by Nameless Mofo:
Hey G-C guys! Whoever's pulling the strings out there, tell them this VM idea will go over about as well as a lead balloon here in the States! Get a clue, things are different here than in Japan and Westerners look at things like this differently.
That's the another question, doesn't the "home office" understand that by forcing the reneging of the "one year from release" they lose people's trust?
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-22-2004).]
As long as they can mock up people with faked promises, they can allow to do not SCDawg.
quote:I still think the problem is intentional or not, they lied (misinformed) their customers once, and if there is one thing that holds true for those parts of the 'Western' market I know, it is not all that forgiving when lied to once. So if the order to withdraw the 'one year after release' did come from Japan they basically dumped airline fuel on a fire that was almost out. Which still makes me wonder if they realized what they were doing at the time?
Originally posted by Italicus:
As long as they can mock up people with faked promises, they can allow to do not SCDawg.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-22-2004).]
Yup, me too got the bad feeling they are like the trapped rat of the proverb.
quote:Yes, GC should have done their homework better. Their aim was as off target as that of a certain gaijin who wanted to pound on company doors in Japan to get new games for translation. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
Originally posted by SCDawg:
if they are doing business in the world market, in this case North American and Europian nations, shouldn't they have done their 'homework' to see what types of practices would and would not work with "branch offices" as I imagine Peach Princess in one way or another needed to learn before making the contacts it has in Japan?
quote:In a Western-style company that is certainly true. Initiative and independent thinking are strongly encouraged. Not so in Japanese firms. New ideas must percolate upward and gain approval all the way to the top before any change in public policy occurs. The "executive staffs" remain in control at all times.
Also and my knowledge of the Japanese business world is not vast so the answer might be obvious if I know more about it, but if someone offers a great idea (such as it seems they had with the patch after one year) why reject it, why not just let it fly since for at least an hour or two it seemed to pacify the masses?
quote:Companies have to adjust their business plans to stay in operation. Their original forecast may have predicted higher revenues. They're left with a choice of raising prices and squeezing their regulars even harder or recruiting more customers. Whether VM is will achieve that goal remains doubtful, but it is at least a rational choice.
As to the piracy thing, okay even if it is true as we all know what a big problem it is for all computer program industries, it still sort of sounds like an excuse introducing the fact it is "costing (them) a lot of revenue" this late in the game.
quote:Adopting a system that you "know doesn't work" would truly be an irrational decision. I give them more credit than that. They probably were shown a lot of case studies from Japanese companies where VM achieved at least partial success. Maybe it was some kind of a 'sweetheart deal' between the two companies. Whatever the reasoning, they must have had some confidence of success since they moved on it so quickly.
It seems more like something to justify their actions because they won't change them even when they already know no system works against pirates and some (like this one) might just make the challenge of cracking the game more worth the effort.
quote:That I have no way of knowing. They do seem to be trying to expand their business, and new growth requires new revenue. If they thought they'd make enough money by continuing with things the way they were, they'd have left it alone. I'm guessing they are being driven by a need to show greater profitability, but as with everthing else I've posited here, it's speculation. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Lastly is "costing us a lot of revenue" enough to sink G-Collections, or just enough to reach the annoying stage?
quote:Without Peter's efforts that would certainly be true. He has had to overcome a lot of obstacles to develop the connections you mention. Living in Japan and running an export business from there have no doubt been key factors.
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
However, I do not agree that PP is in a superior situation; even though PP may be independent, that independence cost them connections to Japanese game makers.
quote:That's been their tactical advantage. Their weakness is a lack of prior experience with overseas markets. They treat their foreign customers like a Japanese firm treats its domestic ones and expect loyalty and compliance. I don't think they were prepared for an outright consumer revolt.
G-C, on the other hand, has access to much more games b/c it appears that the Japanese backers of G-C have the power to make these games available for the English market.
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ecchifan:
[b]However, I do not agree that PP is in a superior situation; even though PP may be independent, that independence cost them connections to Japanese game makers....Without Peter's efforts that would certainly be true. He has had to overcome a lot of obstacles to develop the connections you mention. Living in Japan and running an export business from there have no doubt been key factors.
[QUOTE][b]G-C, on the other hand, has access to much more games b/c it appears that the Japanese backers of G-C have the power to make these games available for the English market....
That's been their tactical advantage. Their weakness is a lack of prior experience with overseas markets. They treat their foreign customers like a Japanese firm treats its domestic ones and expect loyalty and compliance. I don't think they were prepared for an outright consumer revolt.
Ditto. And, oh, you forgot a thing.
In western world, you have to gain trust everytime from your customers, not just only once. They misunderstood their customers' loyalty rate value by imposing such an executioner's rope to the neck of many of us ( Unicorn and me, for example ).
[This message has been edited by Italicus (edited 10-22-2004).]
quote:You're thinking like a Western style businessman. It's always been my impression that GC is not run in that mode. They maintain distance between themselves and their customers. They may be using Vaga42bond to help breach that gap.
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
Hmm...a hierarchy, huh. I suppose that would explain G-collection's complete inability to do more than sputter incoherently. But as stated before, it doesn't excuse such a rash business decision. They should have probed public opinion first with discussions or polls, or at least have announced this before the game went to the presses.
quote:I don't know who's providing the backing for GC, but it seems likely they were not well versed in our business practices. They want to run things like they would back home. Whether or not they willing to admit mistakes and learn from them will determine their future prospects.
Who exactly was the genius who thought the English and Japanese markets were so analagous that the system wouldn't make any more waves here than it did in Japan?
quote:I think both your assertions are correct. As for a dual-version release, perhaps the data suggested this would be a less productive model to try. At this point we can only speculate about the reasoning behind that particular business decision.
Westerners are MUCH more sensitive when it comes to policies perceived to infringe on their property or privacy rights. [...] Even in Japan, they sold two versions when these V-mate clones were used. Did they somehow think the Western market would be more accomodating?
quote:TouchÈ. Though I was talking about dealing with companies and not with customers. In my opinion customers are a lot more fickle and easier to tick off. Flash enough promise of money in front of most companies and they are more forgiving, once again an opinion.
Originally posted by perigee:
Yes, GC should have done their homework better. Their aim was as off target as that of a certain gaijin who wanted to pound on company doors in Japan to get new games for translation. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]
quote:So even if they see that something is working, like the promise of a patch, if it did not come from the top they would stop it? Once again it is probably the difference in culture, but if it works it works, just do what some of those in charge here do, take credit for the idea after it's already out there and working then no one will know if it came from the top or not and the top still keeps power.
Originally posted by perigee:
In a Western-style company that is certainly true. Initiative and independent thinking are strongly encouraged. Not so in Japanese firms. New ideas must percolate upward and gain approval all the way to the top before any change in public policy occurs. The "executive staffs" remain in control at all times.
quote:I cannot disagree with the need to adjust business plans to stay in operation. A company still working under a 1920's plan wouldn't stand a chance, however, did their original forecast focus only on the amount they wouldn't lose if they stop the pirates then assumed those people would buy the game, or what? It does not seem to have taken into account the human equation (the backlash) that with hindsight at least seems to be a massive oversight.
Originally posted by perigee:
Companies have to adjust their business plans to stay in operation. Their original forecast may have predicted higher revenues. They're left with a choice of raising prices and squeezing their regulars even harder or recruiting more customers. Whether VM is will achieve that goal remains doubtful, but it is at least a rational choice.
quote:True it would be irrational if it is known not to work, but is a partial success then even worth the effort with this system or is it better to try something brandnew more geared to the other market? I also agree it seems like it could be one of those "brother-in-law" contracts at least in relation to the V-Mate system.
Adopting a system that you "know doesn't work" would truly be an irrational decision. I give them more credit than that. They probably were shown a lot of case studies from Japanese companies where VM achieved at least partial success. Maybe it was some kind of a 'sweetheart deal' between the two companies. Whatever the reasoning, they must have had some confidence of success since they moved on it so quickly.
quote:But to me that makes a difference, if it is to increase revenue to expand that is wonderful, but even a non-business major such as myself who has "unique" views on how to get new markets, knows whatever you try it at the very least should have enough thought put into it that you know you will not endanger the market you already have, though this too is just speculation.
That I have no way of knowing. They do seem to be trying to expand their business, and new growth requires new revenue. If they thought they'd make enough money by continuing with things the way they were, they'd have left it alone. I'm guessing they are being driven by a need to show greater profitability, but as with everthing else I've posited here, it's speculation.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-22-2004).]
quote:Even given what they expected, I still cannot believe though that they didn't look at historical examples of when consumers revolted in this market and understand it is possible. True it is once again the idea of not doing their 'homework', but even with my previous idea of 'kicking open a few doors' I understand that you cannot assume consumers are the same one state, providence, country over let alone in a different culture, which leaves me slightly stunned those in a business world did not even think this a viable possibility.
Originally posted by perigee:
That's been their tactical advantage. Their weakness is a lack of prior experience with overseas markets. They treat their foreign customers like a Japanese firm treats its domestic ones and expect loyalty and compliance. I don't think they were prepared for an outright consumer revolt.
quote:What data would show that? Yet also in hindsight this seems to be faulty data, very faulty data, since if they had offered those dual-version releases from the start none of this discussion would be going on at the moment. Sure V-Mate would be discussed but not to this extent and not with as many, if any, threats/promises of boycotting G-Collections. Also they would not be sitting there befuddled as to what to do next with some people not sure if they can trust anything they say at this point anyway since someone within their company did say something promising only to have that taken back perhaps because it did not come from the top even if it was an acceptable compromise.
As for a dual-version release, perhaps the data suggested this would be a less productive model to try. At this point we can only speculate about the reasoning behind that particular business decision.
Truth told about the only thing I would blindly trust from them at this point is the dual-versions and at that I would only trust it when they are finally released.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-22-2004).]
quote:My understanding of the way Japanese companies function comes from reading outside accounts and not personal experience. One characteristic behavior is consensus building. Decisions need to be approved at the top, but they may originate in the lowest ranks. At each level in the hierarchy there needs to be active debate and group buy-in. Top management listens to these recommendations carefully and usually abides by them. In a Japanese company it is extremely important to achieve unanimity with respect to decision making. That takes a time and makes Japanese companies slower to react than their Western counterparts. It enables unity within the organization and strengthens the group mind-set, however. This is a fundamental difference from the way our companies typically operate.
Originally posted by SCDawg:
So even if they see that something is working, like the promise of a patch, if it did not come from the top they would stop it? Once again it is probably the difference in culture, but if it works it works, just do what some of those in charge here do, take credit for the idea after it's already out there and working then no one will know if it came from the top or not and the top still keeps power.
I want to make it clear that I am in no way defending GC or predicting success for VM. I'm merely trying to see things from the Japanese point of view to better understand what is going on. As to the eventual outcome of this decision, I don't have any answers. I don't think condemning the company's actions is productive, nor do I think blindly supporting them is helpful. I only wish they survive this crisis and continue providing new products for us to enjoy.
quote:I agree blind support is not helpful, but as to the condemning, if it sends the message they are doing business that is not right for this market, that is to say, they have to move quicker, they have to know we will boycott them and will not be devoutly loyal, then maybe that is acceptable. Yes I understand there is a difference but if my understanding means they do not have to understand or react in a way that shows they understand well then it shows that their lifeblood (the customer) is being forced to change. As far as I know in all markets in all cultures it is the business that must change to meet the customer and not the customer the business.
Originally posted by perigee:
I'm merely trying to see things from the Japanese point of view to better understand what is going on. As to the eventual outcome of this decision, I don't have any answers. I don't think condemning the company's actions is productive, nor do I think blindly supporting them is helpful. I only wish they survive this crisis and continue providing new products for us to enjoy.
In the end though I agree with you, come what may let us hope they do survive this mess and from a personal viewpoint get rid of V-Mate and never try something like this again especially just out of the blue.
[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-22-2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Vaga42Bond:
They DID have someone monitoring the boards... they had a lot of someones, actually. What was needed was someone who wouldn't automatically get pelted with rotting vegetables and dead wombats just for showing up on both the GC and PP BBS.