Discussing this is more fun than playing Discipline? 
Heh, it is just a simple case of my interest in many different fields of science. I was introduced to biology (including how reproduction works) at an early age by my mother, who was a nurse for the majority of my childhood.
There is a very fine line between seduction and rape. Seduction isn’t illegal at all but rape is. Therefore the problem in most rape cases is that the man claims that the woman voluntarily accepted to have sex with him. But the woman denies this and claim that the man raped her. If the two people were drunk then she will probably lose because she may just have had a blackout and forgotten that she told the man that she wanted sex. It isn’t illegal for two drunken people to end up in bed together even if they don’t remember how this happened when they became sober.
Not every accusation from a woman about being raped are actually rapes. In many cases the woman even withdraws her accusation and admit that she lied. Woman often make such accusations because they want to get attention. Or they do it to get some kind of revenge against the guy.
And then there are the cases where too drunken people end up in bed together and have sex. Next morning they don’t remember how this happened and the woman therefore suspects that she was raped. Her suspicion may be right - or it may be wrong. If there isn’t any other proof then the court will have to judge that it wasn’t rape.
They are stimulated like a man have sex with a woman who presses her fingernails painfully into the back of her lovers skin will be. But neither the bull nor the male lover are scared and they won’t want not to have erection or ejaculation.
But is this rape? Let us assume that you are visiting a strong muscular bodybuilding woman who tell you that she want to have sex with her. You don’t want to. But then she tells you that she won’t let you leave her room until evening (it is early morning at the time) unless you have sex with her. You then have a choice. But you decide that you will rather have sex with her then be held back in her room a whole day. So you do it. But were you raped?
The problem is that men can choose to have sex if they are held back by a woman even though they actually had an opportunity not to do it. How much pressure do the woman have to use before it is classified as rape?
Where are the limit between legal seduction and rape?
Not every claim of rape is actually true. Just the same way, not every claim of robbery is actually true, and not every claim of having found something disgusting in your restaurant food was actually true. Some people are crazy and want attention or money or to cover up their own acts.
Usually, somewhere between 1-10% of reports of ANY crime turn out to be complete baloney. Same is true for rape. This is not a special case of women lying. This is a completely normal case of PEOPLE lying.
However, rape cases are notoriously hard to get a conviction on, often because of legal technicalities, people’s preconceptions, and the stress of the whole affair on the accuser. Many rape cases do not lead to a conviction. This is not the same thing as the accusation having been a lie. There are a lot of misogynist sites who take the statistics of all cases that were not prosecuted (for insufficient evidence) or not convicted (for whatever reason) and claim that ALL of these are lies and that therefore the vast majority of rape claims are lies. It should be obvious that there’s a very unpleasant motive involved in trying to spread the idea that the victim is usually lying.
If they were honestly both drunk then neither could consent anyway, and they’re both guilty of poor judgment.
If only one of them is blasted, then legally and ethically, it’s wrong to have sex with that person. Whether that person is male or female. If they’re completely mindbogglingly drunk and unable to make decisions, they cannot give consent. Even if the completely drunk person says “LOL LETS HAVE SEX YAY” that’s not legal consent - just as it’s not legal consent if a twelve year old says yes.
Obviously, it can be quite hard to tell what really happened, whether or not either party consented, and whether or not either party was sober enough to know what the hell they were doing. Again, this is why a lot of cases fall apart. Not because someone’s lying but because the whole thing is messed up and there’s no way to know.
I’m aware of a court case where someone who was sober thought it would be really funny to carry off two extremely drunk people and put them into the same bed. Sex then happened, and one of the people involved was not happy about it. But legally, it wasn’t really the fault of the other sex partner, because they were both out of their minds, and there wasn’t an obvious law to charge the sober person with. (I think they eventually got hit for ‘contributing to the delinquency of a minor’ or something.)
Sex under duress during the course of false imprisonment? Why yes, that’d be rape*.
If you lock a woman in a dark closet and say you won’t let her out unless she gives you a blowjob, her giving you a blowjob is not consensual.
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- I star this because the legal definition varies from location to location and it’s quite likely that ‘rape’ is not the correct term to use. It is, however, clearly a sex crime.
It only has to be a credible threat in the eyes of the victim. If the victim is making a decision based on duress, it is not consensual sex.
The exact nature of the crime, afaik, varies depending on what the threat was of. There’s a difference between “If you don’t sleep with me, I’ll kill your child” and “If you don’t sleep with me, I’ll publish naked pictures of you on the internet” and “If you don’t sleep with me, you won’t get a promotion.”
All three of those cases are criminal offenses, but the severity is quite different.
I agree. Except that I have heard it the other way around from different women: “It is much too hard to get a conviction and it is very humiliating for a girl to tell about such things in court. The court should believe the girl because she wouldn’t usually lie!”
The problem in such cases is the lack of witnesses. Usually there are none. So who is lying? The girl who got drunk and don’t remember what happened? Or the guy who says that he was just as drunk but still remembers that the girl was the one who wanted the sex?
The court can’t tell. So it has to dismiss the case.
Agreed. But poor judgment in such situation isn’t a crime that will lead to any conviction.
It may not be legal consent. But there are too problems:
- Was the person really that drunk?
- Even if the woman was that drunk, she might not have appeared to be. So did the half-drunk guy know, how drunk she really was?
There is no law which tell people that if the other person have had more than about three beers (or something like that) then the consent isn’t legal. So accepting a sexual proposal from a drunk person may only be bad judgment which still could be legal.
Statuary rape is something quite different because you should be able to find out that the person is only 12 years old.
Technically the sober person didn’t force them to have sex. So I don’t think that most judges would convict that person for anything.
If a man is held back by a woman for months then this obviously is illegal. But maybe the woman only offers him sex without any threats or promises. He then might tell the woman that he want the sex because he don’t want to live without sex for that long. So they have sex.
What will he then tell his wife when he is finally released? That he voluntarily wanted the sex? Or that he was “forced” to have sex with the woman?
If he lies will his wife and the court then believe him or will they believe the woman who held him back?
Yes. But the “threat” can even be less than that. What if the woman who might be a friend of your mother and sister says: "If you don’t have sex with me then I won’t come to your little sister’s birthday and she will cry?
The problem is how small the threat can be if it still has to be enough to get some kind of conviction in court.
Um… how is that the other way around? It IS much too hard to get a conviction. It IS very humiliating for a victim to talk about such things in court, especially when there are a bunch of people commenting that the victim MUST be lying.
Why would either of them need to be lying? Both those statements can be true.
Depends on what jurisdiction you’re in.
If you’re not sure how drunk someone is, DON’T SLEEP WITH THEM. (And don’t let them drive!)
Now, seriously, a case where two people got a bit drunk and had regrettable sex and it’s murky about who wanted it when should never come to court in the first place. If there’s no evidence of anything beyond the fact that one or both parties were drunk, it’s a waste of time. There needs to be some evidence that one person was actively trying to take advantage. (For example, records of boasting to your friends about how you’re going to screw this passed-out chick!)
The sober person didn’t force the sex to happen, but the sober person’s actions were clearly inappropriate. If you wake up at a party to discover some drunk guy pounding away at your ass, you’re probably going to be upset.
Um… I can’t even figure out what on earth you’re saying here. If a man goes and lives with another woman voluntarily, that has nothing to do with anything. If he’s trapped on a desert island with a woman who just happens to be there, did not imprison him, and has no power over him, then it’s consensual. If he was held captive, then the sex is not consensual. I can’t tell which scenario you’re trying to propose.
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So you examine the circumstances and consider whether or not it was reasonable. I’m failing to see how this is a problem.
Correct. But I don’t think that the court can relax more about the requirement for evidence because then too many innocent people will be convicted.
The problem very often is that the woman don’t remember having agreed to anything. She just doesn’t know how she ended in bed with the man and therefore assume that she was raped. But the man claims that they both wanted sex. Maybe even that she was the one who wanted it most.
I such cases the guy could easily be lying. But the evidence isn’t very good because it could also have happened the way the guy claims. If the woman had too much to drink then she could just have had a blackout even if she just doesn’t believe it. (People still don’t always remember what they said and did when they were drunk.)
Agreed. But people are not always that reasonable when they are having a good time at a party.
Usually the woman’s best chance is to have a blood test as fast as possible because the guy could have put something into her drink. If traces of rohypnol or sleeping pills are found then the guy could be convicted because this will normally show that he is lying.
The man is held captive. But even though he is offered sex he isn’t threatened or promised any reward for accepting the offer. So it is completely voluntarily that he has sex with the woman. Is this really rape?
You have widened the rape concept a lot. So I just wanted to know how much.
When I wrote that raping a man wasn’t possible for a woman I didn’t think of situations where the victim accepted the sex just to avoid a small threat. But of situations where he was ready to fight the sex no matter what just like women at least were a few decades ago. (Women could get pregnant and there were no way to get an abortion. Also women couldn’t support a child without having a husband and men didn’t want to marry any woman who already had a child.)
Right. I don’t want to relax the requirements for evidence, I just want people to acknowledge that it’s a tough situation, and that ‘we were unable to convict’ is not the same thing as ‘she made it up’.
Neither of them needs to be lying. If he says “she wanted sex” and she says “I don’t remember”, then they may both be telling the truth.
It’s not voluntary at all if he’s being held captive. Because there is a credible threat there.
Sex between an inmate and a prison guard is legally considered a sexual assault regardless of whether or not the prisoner agreed to it, because they’re not in a position to make that decision without being taken advantage of. There is a chance that the prisoner just wanted to have sex. But there’s also a good chance that the prisoner thought sex was necessary to obtain food, or to not be beaten, or something. The prison guard is in a position of authority.
(I’m using ‘sexual assault’ here rather than ‘rape’ because again, it’s a slightly different crime.)
No, I haven’t widened the rape concept a lot. I’ve pointed out that various things are illegal and involve nonconsensual sex. Threatening to distribute incriminating photos of someone unless they have sex with you is not called rape, it is generally called blackmail. It’s a crime, and the sex is not consensual. Threatening to fire someone unless they have sex with you is not called rape, it is generally called sexual harassment. It is a crime, and the sex is not consensual.
And I’ve shown you multiple cases in the news of women hauling off men, chaining them up, drugging them, and forcing them to have sex… or just raping them in their sleep. But you blankly refuse to accept them.
I have never heard about such a case in my country (I live in Europe). But the law is probably different in the US.
And I’ve shown you multiple cases in the news of women hauling off men, chaining them up, drugging them, and forcing them to have sex… or just raping them in their sleep. But you blankly refuse to accept them.
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I know that you can find such cases. But I miss the evidence that the man didn’t just accept the sex.
A person put two people in bed together and then they had sex. Why? Well, if you wake up in the middle of the night and discover a naked women sleeping next to you then you might think that she wanted sex. Would you then yell “Rape!” or would you just accept the situation at try to seduce her to give you the sex she probably wanted from you earlier in the night? A lot of men would just feel lucky in such a situation.
The same is true in many other situations where a man is abducted by women and “raped”. Many men will not feel that they are poor victims in such a situation. They will just feel lucky.
Women raping men are now common i South Africa. See http://www.haitiwebs.com/forums/women_h … e_men.html But what the men probably don’t know is the following:
“The issue of women raping men is now one of the major problems in South Africa. In fact, it is a source of embarrassment to us,” Thembi said.
Giving AIDS back to men
Saturday Sun investigation, however, revealed that the alleged rapists are mostly AIDS infected women, who believed that they have contacted the killer disease from men and have decided to pay them back in their own coins.
Lebo Leburu, a shop assistant in Johannesburg, told Saturday Sun thus: “The rapists are AIDS infected prostitutes. They are angry that men have given them the disease and have decided to give it back to them.”
If the male “victims” knew that the purpose of the “rapes” were to give them AIDS then they probably wouldn’t feel lucky unless they already were HIV positive. But probably they didn’t know. So did they fight against the sex or did they just feel lucky?
I admit that it is very difficult to judge the different stories in the news. But I miss a story where the women tell a HIV-negative man that they want to rape him so they can get revenge and give AIDS back to a male. If they could rape him after telling him that then I would accept that they really were able to rape a man who didn’t want the sex at all and was ready to fight with his life against it. But I sincerely doubt that you can find such a story anywhere.
And you keep saying this, despite case after case of the man saying quite clearly that he didn’t want the sex, or the man being forcibly physically restrained, or the man being drugged, or the man being painfully injured in the course of forced sex.
You’re blatantly looking at red and calling it green.
If I found a strange woman sleeping in my bed and immediately tried to have sex with her helpless body, THAT WOULD BE RAPE. Committed by ME, on HER.
… So if you encounter a complete stranger naked and helpless, you decide that’s just God’s lucky little gift to you and you should immediately Put It In?
I’m astounded that after having description after description of men being assaulted against their will, you then come up with a scenario in which the MAN would be the assaulter and say “See, he’s not being raped!” Well, no, HE’S BEING A RAPIST!
None of the stories I shared had anything to do with ‘you wake up and find a naked woman nearby who is patiently waiting for you to get excited’. A few were ‘you wake up groggily to discover a woman is already firmly situated on your cock’. Rather different story.
Considering that, again, the story outright says the men did not want the sex, they were held down and forcibly aroused and their genitals were bruised in the process… how can you possibly think that the men felt lucky? When they’re being held captive for several days at gunpoint being abused by a gang, how can you possibly think the men felt lucky?
People often lie about this. Until about 50 years ago you probably couldn’t find any woman who would admit to enjoy sex at all. I think that this gradually changed through the nineteen-sixties and nineteen-seventies. But before that you would be slapped in the face even if you just suggested to a woman that she enjoyed sex with her husband, because decent women didn’t enjoy sex at all! They only accepted it because they had promised in church to obey their husband!
Men are often willing to accept such things for sex. Especially when they are excited by a tempting woman.
I admit that most men would complain that the woman drugged them. But only because they want to enjoy it when they are having sex. Even so they would still complain that the woman didn’t ask them nicely instead of “forcing” them to have sex. And if they are married or have a girlfriend then they don’t at all publicly want to take any responsibility for what happened.
Only because I know a lot of men who would enjoy the sex and just complain afterwards anyway.
I didn’t say that she was helpless. If she voluntarily lay down and sleep naked in another man’s bed then I don’t think that she is in a position to complain if the man touches her to find out if she is tempted and interested in sex. If not why would she then take her close off and sleep next to you?
- To be held up at gunpoint wouldn’t be something they liked.So they were a little scared in the beginning.
- When they then found out that the women only wanted sex then they were probably very relieved and willing to cooperate.
- Then the women were a little too rough which they didn’t like. But at that time they already had sex with the women. So they preferred to continue to do what the women wanted instead of making them angry.
- Then they were released and told that the women were HIV positive. They didn’t like that at all. But it was too late to try to avoid having sex with the women.
And a lot of mainstream culture jokes and laughs that a man isn’t a man if he won’t take sex at the drop of a hat any time it’s offered. It was quite brave then for a woman to admit enjoying sex. It’s quite brave now for a man to admit he’s been taken advantage of.
… So basically, you think it’s okay if a strange woman hits you over the head with a frying pain, chains you to a wall, shoots you up with viagra, and fucks you til your sausage is skinned?
You know, some men are actual human beings instead of raging animals controlled by their balls. Some men actually don’t want to stick their dick in every crevice they see. Some men, when approached by a drunk chick waving her arms and saying “Hiiiiii! Wanna fuck?” do not think ‘Ooo, easy sex!’ but instead ‘Ew.’
You know some people who’ve joked that it would be great fun to be tackled by an aggressive, attractive woman. It would be, if it played out exactly like their fantasy! A lot of people, when they hear the Mormon story, think it would be fun as long as she left out the gun and the chloroform. Just like a lot of girls have fantasies of being carried off and ravished by handsome men. Fantasy ain’t reality.
Very few people would enjoy being painfully assaulted by someone they did not desire. Very few people really want to be chained up in a basement for several days, bruised and bleeding and drugged while things are done to them against their will.
An unconscious person is not your property. They do not exist for your amusement. If you find a man naked in your bed, that does not mean you have the right to stick your cock in his ass without asking, or to stick his cock in your ass without asking.
Now, if you just mean ‘waking her up to ASK her if she wants sex’ then that’s reasonable.
Well, that’s something you’d have to ask her. You can’t just assume!
Many people have had incidents in college dorms where someone drunkenly stumbles into the wrong room and even sleeps in the wrong bed (or throws up on it).
It was brave then (and stupid) for a woman to admit enjoying sex because women then were supported by their husbands. Women couldn’t support themselves at the time and no man wanted to marry a woman who liked sex and would agree to sex even without being married to the man.
I don’t think it is brave now for a man to say “It wasn’t my fault. I was raped! So it was the woman’s fault!” This sound more like avoiding to take responsibility for your actions.
No I don’t. But I don’t think that even viagra will make this work for her.
Correct. But how many men will hate it enough to reject it even if there will be bad consequences?
I am not a homosexual.
If you are sleepy this isn’t what you will do. And it probably won’t work either because she doesn’t know what you want and therefore doesn’t like to be awaken.
If I was sleeping and my girlfriend just woke me up in the middle of the night to ask if I wanted to have sex with her then I probably would be annoyed and reject her. But if she touched me gently until I was ready then she would probably succeed. (I wouldn’t mind her trying anyway.) And I don’t think that women are much different in that area.
This is different. In such a case she would probably just throw herself in the bed without taking all her cloth off. And she would probably wake you up while doing it.
If the woman is sober enough to carefully remove all her cloths and carefully lie down beside you without waking you up then she isn’t that drunk and she probably knows what she is doing.
So yes, I still think that I would have every right to touch such a woman to see how she reacts. If she didn’t object then I would just continue to touch her (if I wanted to). But I wouldn’t try anything else before I knew that she was awake and realized what was about to happen.
It’s pretty brave to admit something when everyone will laugh at you for it and accuse you of lying.
What about the case with the Russian hairdresser doing just that?
Are we coming back around to that ‘nonconsensual sex’ discussion earlier? If you are threatened with dire consequences if you don’t sleep with someone, then you are not able to freely consent.
If a doctor has your dying child on the table and says “I won’t operate unless you blow me”, it’s not consensual sex.
I am not a homosexual.
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I know, but what does that have to do with anything? You don’t have the RIGHT. Nor does anyone else have the right to do that to you. If you pass out and some gay guy finds you, he’s not allowed to just do whatever he wants with you.
Your girlfriend’s a bit different than a stranger, though. She should already have some knowledge of your boundaries and what’s okay with you.
If you wake up and find a strange man touching you, I suspect you’re not going to be happy.
Not if you were drunk yourself, or a heavy sleeper, or someone carried her to your bed, or she was wearing clothes that were easy to remove, or she sleepwalks naked, or all sorts of things. You can’t just make assumptions. You can never just make assumptions. You don’t have the right to do things to her just because she’s there.
Sure, if a girl is naked in your bed, there’s a good chance she wants to be there. SO ASK.
It is not that difficult to ask.
(If I found a strange girl naked in my bed, I suspect my reactions would involve checking to see if it was a realdoll someone had obtained as a prank. Then looking for hidden cameras in case it was a stripper someone had hired as a prank. Then sneaking out of the bed and looking for evidence of who the heck this is and what we did!)
In regards to the “taking off clothes while drunk” situation, there was recent news in Japan regarding this. As Peter said in his J-List newsletter:
Granted, he didn’t go in to someone’s room and lie down in their bed. However, the fact remains that just because you are really drunk doesn’t mean you aren’t capable of taking your clothes off. (Hell, this guy even neatly folded his clothes!) If people were incapable of taking clothes off while drunk, there would probably be less cases of two very drunk people sleeping with each other, don’t you think?
I am not an expert in viagra. So maybe the effect of viagra (in high doses) is stronger than I assume.
There is a difference between really “being forced, so you can’t choose at all” and saying I was forced because she wouldn’t give me the money if I chose not to have sex with her. You are not forced (in a legal sense) just because you badly want the money you are offered. You are not forced either if you just want some other favor that you have no legal right to claim. Your greed for such things doesn’t mean that you are raped (in a legal sense).
I am still not homosexual. So you are right. But in the discussed case it is about a man and a woman. The woman would probably never lie naked beside a man in his bed if she wasn’t heterosexual.
We are discussing an imaginary case. So we will easily disagree because we are imagining different things. You imagine a woman who is completely drunk and unconscious. But I doubt that such a woman would be have been able to undress completely and I also think that something would tell me that she was as drunk as that. Anyway if she was that drunk then she wouldn’t react when I touched her. So I would soon find out and stop touching her.
I wouldn’t be afraid of her accusing me of anything because any rational woman would understand that I assumed she was interested when I found her naked in my bed.
Some men would even have sex with her if she was drunk and unconscious. This would be rape. But there is no chance that the man would be convicted in court because the evidence is missing. The man just has to claim that she was the one who started touching him and that he was drunk too. The woman won’t even be able to know if he is lying or not.
So if women don’t want to be raped then they shouldn’t end up that drunk in any guy’s bedroom.
If I were completely drunk this probably wouldn’t happen. If it did none of us would really know what happened and who’s fault it was.
Even if her clothes were easy to remove she probably wouldn’t remove them all. Something would tell me that something was wrong. This could be an open door which she forgot to close, cloth lying in a strange way at a strange place. She could have puked. Or it could be that her cloths were nowhere to be seen (which would probably be the case if she was sleepwalking).
We always make reasonable assumptions. If the assumption turns out to be wrong we excuse. That is life.
Now you are making assumptions about the circumstances. If such a thing happened in real life you would use your brain to figure out why she was there. If there were some reason to suspect someone to have done a prank then this would change my reactions. If I had never seen the girl before then that would make me suspect something too. But if I had seen the girl earlier and had no reason to suspect a prank from somebody then I might easily come to the conclusion that she probably had done it by herself and was interested in something. If the prank just was that she was trying to shock me by being naked in my bed then she couldn’t complain when I (maybe contrary to her expectations) tried to seduce her. If I succeeded with this then I could laugh at her in stead of having her laughing at me and telling everybody what a shy and impotent guy I was 
Theoretically anything is possible. But certain things are so extremely unlikely that you can’t be expected to care about them. (For instance that you girlfriend suddenly will accuse you of rape when you just tried to seduce her as you had already done earlier.)
Drunk people will nearly never do everything in only perfect ways so you don’t suspect anything.
Even drunk people can do what is necessary to get sex if they want this. But a completely drunk person is usually too lazy to take all his/her cloths off just to get to sleep. Such a person will start taking it off but will then usually lie down and fall into sleep without finishing the job.
Which is why we had a whole long discussion earlier up-thread about all sorts of different cases and how it varies on situation - everything from rape to sexual assault to sexual harassment to plain old prostitution, if you’re just offering someone money or a favor. It’s all about how much power the perpetrator has and how much reasonable choice the victim has.
Exactly. If someone touches you in a way that you don’t want to be touched, you’re not happy about it. The simple fact that you have, for whatever reason, ended up unconscious in front of someone doesn’t mean that you are now fair game for them to molest. It would be wrong.
Well, I’m also specifically thinking back to the real case I mentioned, where the girl was carried off and put in the bed by someone else, and woke up to discover someone penetrating her, because he thought she was there for sex. I don’t totally blame that guy because he was drunk and drunk people do dumb stuff. But the point is that there are lots of reasons that things happen, people are surprisingly stupid and contrary, it’s not a good idea to make assumptions.
And if men don’t want to be brought up on rape charges, they shouldn’t boink drunk girls.
When it comes to other people, you can bloody well ask. We’re not animals! We invented language for a reason!
It takes a few seconds to check that someone is thinking what you think they’re thinking, and it saves both of you a lot of pain and trouble.
I can’t imagine someone hanging out in my bed asleep as a plan to seduce me, seems quite strange to me. I’d be worriedly wondering if we’d already had sex that I just couldn’t remember!
If I wanted sex from someone, I’d try to wake them up, not strip naked and sleep beside them.
I don’t like this discussion. You need some cute overload.
Unfortunately I think that the risk for men in such situations is very small. A girl haven’t many chances of winning the case in court if she was drunk at the time.
You are ignoring the fact that it is completely legal to attempt seducing a person. It is even legal to fill up her glass all the evening if you think that she is easier to seduce if she becomes drunk. As long as she accepts you can do anything. (You are still completely responsible for your acts even if you are drunk!) Even if you fill up her glass and toasts all the time she isn’t forced to drink it. So if she becomes drunk and does things she regrets then she is still responsible and you can’t be taken to court.
Only if she is unconscious you have to stop. But even in such a case you probably won’t be taken to court because she can’t prove that she didn’t accept. That is one of the problems in rape cases.
I have known women who had a very strange sense of humor. Even one who let two guys throw dices to decide who of the guys should take her virginity. And it was one of favorite stories to tell to everybody when she was a little drunk. She just loved to shock people by telling how she lost that virginity
She has done many other shocking things too to have fun. So I know that she could easily have done something like lying naked beside a shy guy just to shock him