Nekomimi & Pregnancy Banned in Eroge

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#41

… Look, I know everyone’s upset and it’s easy to overreact, but can we please not leap from a to alpha centauri? (I know, I’m reacting touchily too, which is why I keep editing this post trying to work out what I’m saying.)

I asked if NOW supported discrimination against men in law, such as Narg’s examples.

You answered “Yes, because a group that is not NOW is opposed to something entirely unrelated.”

In what possible universe does this prove the point? :slight_smile:

Banning rape in eroge - while stupid and wrong! - is not a men’s rights issue. It is not legal discrimination against men. While more H fans are male than female, I’m not even the only girl on this board, much less the only girl in the world who likes H, and certainly not the only girl in the world who likes porn. Assuming that porn only affects men is, well, sexist. :slight_smile:

Many people have this insane vision of feminists as evil destroyers of men such that they immediately blame anything that happens on ‘the feminists’ even if no feminist organisation was even vaguely involved. Even in cases like this one, where a particular group of feminists actually did get involved in part of the brouhaha, the rage and nastiness that erupts all over the internet is aimed solely at them (and sometimes at women in general) and not on any of the other forces involved. Nobody talks about wanting to shoot journalists, or torture the EOCS, or rape politicians to death.

And people make all these sweeping statements because “everybody knows” feminists do this, that, and the other, and thus convince even more people that all this stuff is true, and that it’s okay to vilify them.

Can you show me some evidence of anything NOW has actually done wrong? It’s possible that they do horrible things! But I don’t know it. And you don’t seem to know it either, you’re just vaguely handwaving that they’re evil and saying “they do stuff like this so they might do this other stuff too”.

All I know about them at the moment is what I can see in Wikipedia, which says they’re for the Equal Rights Amendment (which would include breaking up the male-only draft afaik), for abortion rights, gay rights, and pay parity, and against rape, domestic violence, and racism. I don’t see anything there about banning beer, porn, or sports cars. I see no mention of hentai or football on their about page.

#42

This ban is crazy (if it’s entirely true–keep in mind, there’s nothing official yet). They’re not just banning CG that could be considered obscene; they’re trying to blanket suppress the concepts of underage and nonconsensual sex in their entirety. That’s draconian even for fetish titles that focus on that sort of thing; but the scary thing is how broad reaching this ban proposes to be. It’s like banning any representation of crime or injustice. How the hell do you tell a meaningful story without injustice figuring in somewhere? They’re placing severe limits on the very diversity and creativity that distinguishes eroge from live action porn.

If I want wholesome entertainment, I’ll go watch Sesame Street. Leave my porn alone.

#43

Except it is. It’s what “equality” is. That’s the hypocritical part I don’t like in many (most?) feminist moves: only defending the woman side, yet proclaiming to act for “equality”. Sorry, but if you’re only fighting for or against one gender, you’re not being “equal”.
If the association was named 'Protecting Woman NOW" and proclaiming they’re only act in order to protect women, then, yes, “failing to fight for (men) (…) is not their particular job.” However, by claiming to act for equality yet to only defend one side is being hypocritical. It’s like creating an organisation about fighting inequality in hunger, yet leaving the men starve because you’re in fact only concerned with women being correctly fed; you’re not being “equal”, acting “equally”, or fighting for “equality”. You’re fighting for “equality” if you’re fighting for both genders to have the exact, same rights. Fighting for women to have the rights men have and they don’t, but failing to fight for men to have the rights women have and they don’t isn’t acting for “equality”. If you don’t have an equal behaviour to people, regardless of their gender, treating them the exact, equal way when they’re in the same, equal situation, you’re not being “equal”.

#44

NOW is named the National Organisation for Women. And that’s the exact organisation that Narg was complaining was only fighting for women’s rights.

And for that matter, when I actually looked them up, they are promoting the Equal Rights Amendment, which since it says it will remove all sex-based discrimination in law,that IS defending the male side as well!

This ‘Equality Now’ group who were involved in the anti-hentai thing, however, do have Equality in their title and yet appear to be almost entirely only interested in women, but we already knew they were idiots, or they wouldn’t be campaigning for censorship. :slight_smile:

#45

The reason I think “hardline” feminism takes so much flak is its insistence on changing societal attitudes, rather than just meeting specific (legal) endpoints. Changing attitudes is certainly important–getting rid of racism, for example, is almost impossible without tackling the underlying attitude, racial prejudice. The real question is this: is it reasonable to force attitudes to change by threat of legal, social, or economic punishment? Are the sacrifices in freedom of expression and individual liberty really worth the small gains you could reasonably expect from such an approach? Let’s put this issue in context. Banning abuse of females in eroge is just a small step towards eliminating representations of the abuse of women, which in turn just a small piece of the overall feminist agenda to alter negative stereotypes of and attitudes towards women-which they believe will ultimately help achieve their vision of a society where women are treated as social, financial, and intellectual equals. Banning abuse of females in eroge is such a tiny pixel in the grand scheme of the feminist vision, yet the loss of freedom of expression is very real. Taking away my rape and loli games to make me treat women better is certainly ridiculous. But their idea is that by removing all prominent display of negative attitudes towards women, prejudice against women will eventually disappear. The idea is noble, and completely counters the concepts of liberty and freedom of expression democracy is founded upon-indeed, it’s almost Orwellian. Societal change needs to come gradually from the bottom up, not from the top down. Oppression is the inevitable result of mandating changes in attitude.

The problem is that many feminists aren’t satisfied with slow bottom up change that takes many generations. Understandably, they want change they can see in their lifetime. But radical change does not occur without considerable sacrifice.

#46

No, there is nothing I have against NOW atm, and if they are for the equal rights amendment without also being for more broadly defining obscenity (which is a large catch-phrase to undermine free-speech, even inside ones home). Since I cannot know what they don’t say I can assume, until otherwise proven wrong, they would not be in favor of the restrictions on eroge (they don’t have to be pro, neutral is fine).

Equality Now, is another story.

#47

headdesk The yaoi post was a joke. A JOKE! I didn’t mean to set off WW3.

That said, I’ve seen some disgusting comments posted at various sites. Comments calling for the rape and murder of women. Way to prove the opposition’s point, guys. :roll:

#48

Ah, sorry, I mixed NOW with Equality Now then read their homepage, bringing out my comments. Sincere apologies (though my point stands --doesn’t apply to NOW, though).

#49

NOW LOOK WHAT THEY DONE!! :shock:

http://www.cartoonleap.com/2009/06/24/h … a-bad-way/

http://www.notcliche.com/lbw/eroge-indu … foreigners

Minori don’t want us anymore. What if other famous eroge makers follow their lead and forbid gaijins of even look at their sites, too? :?

#50

You’re late to the news, Peter!

#51

That was THERE and BEFORE, not HERE and NOW. :lol:

Okay, okay, sorry. My mistake. I did not pay much attencion to that thread because i’m not interested in rape anyway. :roll:

But Nekomimi/kemonomimi is another story!

#52

It has gone WAY beyond just “rape games”, though.

#53

I’m not mad at you personally, so don’t take it the wrong way, but that’s [u]EXACTLY[/u] the kind of thinking that got you in this mess in the first place.

Most people didn’t care when it was rape. Most people didn’t care when it was loli. Now some people care because it’s semi-animorphic bestiality. Well what if the people who don’t care for semi-animorphic bestiality won’t say anything? The point I’m getting at: if people say nothing because they don’t care for their other bretherine, it will be TOO LATE when they come for you because there’s no one else left.

In fact, I’m truly glad they’re seriously trying to ban what YOU want, because otherwise you’d do nothing and let them ban what I want. Now people are saying, “we have to save eroge” (and they mean ALL eroge), instead of being selfish and only caring about what they wanted.

These people want to ban ALL eroge if they can, and they picked easy targets at first. If they made a mistake, it was ONLY trying to take on too many targets at once. Had they taken their time: gotten rape banned in 2009, got loli banned in 2010, got bestiality banned in 2011, waited a year or two doing nothing, then moved on to pregnancy in 2013: people probably would be sitting on their butts, not realizing their own time was inevitable - because they didn’t care. :roll:

#54

Some people actually don’t really care, though. Seriously, it’s just a hobby, nothing more. Aside from the fact I have a backlog huge enough to endure a couple decades long siege, I’m used to seeing my hobbies being vilified, and finding new ones. In the 80s, when I was heavily into (pen&paper) RPGs, RPGs got demonized. In the 90s, when I was heavily into manga and anime, they got defamed. Now, in the 2000s when I’m heavily into erogees, erogees get vilified. New decade, new target, but nothing new under the sun. I shall probably be into some new hobby in the 2010s, and it may get denigrated as well but, who cares? It’s not important; it’s just a hobby.

#55

You’re right of course, but I find the massive hypocrisy among followers of the eroge so annoying. Just because it’s a hobby, doesn’t mean I can’t have love for it. Owning antique cars might only be a hobby, and it’s certainly not vital to life, but that doesn’t stop people from pouring significant amounts of their paycheck and free time into pursuing.

And of course while it’s ONLY a hobby, the political and legal ramifications of censorship aren’t something that should be seen as ONLY a freedom (you know it won’t stop at eroge).

That’s why I admire the NRA, although I don’t agree with them. If interest groups are trying to ban anything from grenades to naval mines to hand guns to refurbished vintage tanks from WW1: the NRA rabidly defends them all as the same. They understand the dangers of the domino effect. And sure… you can’t win them all (can’t own naval mines), but you can win things people never expect (can own refurbished tanks with the proper paperwork).

#56

Didn’t say anything against you following such a fight…

There are battles deserving to be fought, and battles not deserving it. Fighting for “freedom” doesn’t mean going all out for any tiny detail that can be even remotely perceived as an attack on “freedom” --not mentioning that “freedom” is over-estimated anyway.

So, sure, you can freely fight this battle, but don’t become a missionary preaching people that they should join your fight, or the sky shall fall.

#57

True. But their strategy has gone asymmetric. Instead of outlawing pedo comics as immoral, they have it listed as obscene. Instead of having rape seen as devoid of artistic merit, they have it listed as something only the mentally degenerate would try to profit from or enjoy. In essence they undermine from a different position, to get the same effect they wanted. It then overspills. If you can outlaw pedo comics as obscene, it doesn’t take any legal leap to have the precedence set in obscenity from depiction of fictional drawings, to then apply into live pornography (all those babysitter themed pornos) or literature (stories featured in Hustler). In the case of eroge: the bans are going to spill into manga, anime, and AV’s.

Just how not every battle is worth fighting, not every battle that seems trivial is actually trivia.

The other line item that I tend to watch is “legal globalization.” For example when that guy in Australia got slammed for drawing Simpsons porn, it was brought up in pedo comic cases in Virginia as a legal precedence (and it worked). Japan’s laws on censorship are always being negatively compared to ultra conservative versions in Europe and America.

lol… someone has too. :stuck_out_tongue:

On a flip side though: people shouldn’t then be surprised they’re suddenly on the ban list, when they saw the storm brewing on the horizon. When your neighbors are being invaded by the regional dictator, don’t feign surprise when his armies are marching on your streets. They got to nekomimi eroge, because they already got everything else, and it was only natural for it to be next.

Now granted, it’s not like the NAZI’s or Communists in actual history, but the general strategy is the same: targeting and eradicating of one group at a time. For whatever reason, the radical feminist groups made a tactical error in losing patience and started moving too fast (or maybe not… the battle isn’t over yet).

And generally speaking, most civil and legal rights movements work on the principal of being a missionary preaching people that they should join your fight, even if you’re the majority who isn’t being affected.

#58

Yeah, i know. My bad. :lol:

I know it sounds like hypocrisy, but how i can put… there is things what cannot be taken seriously… others like rape can and must! If i were a girl, i would not like the idea of being raped/gangraped or have strange/disgusting things choke inside my every orifice, either. (actually, i don’t like the idea of such things even being a man) :lol:

Like Olf said, some thing are better let be forgotten… because they’re not fun at all. Or at least, for some of us they aren’t.

So, sorry for that, Narg… But i will not fight for the right of rape not being banned from eroges. I have other fights to join right now.

#59

No one’s arguing that rape is a good thing … at least, no one on this board is, I can’t speak for the creepy blog. :slight_smile: We’re arguing that a story involving tentacle rape of a drawn fictional character is not the same thing as actually raping a real person.

Neither is catgirl sex the same thing as molesting an actual cat!

I don’t want to play the creepy rape games, they’re disturbing and unpleasant. But they’re FICTION. I don’t want to watch horror movies either, they’re gross. But they’re FICTION.

#60

Sure, but I have matters to take care other than to fight for horror movies not to be banned.