@Carlos Hernandez
I'm aware of the law being the root of all evil.
I thought people would be able to read that out of my previous comment. :o
@Murderous Int
Nope, I still claim to not care about the community - I'm simply not enough of an ass to screw them over for benefitting my own, personal ideals.
I don't even want to go ranting, but discussing stuff; certain things strike me as debatable and out of context, or lacking validation, so I get slightly annoyed when reading points that I get such an impression of.
I never said that I want people to accept me, I said that I want the stigma being dropped of questionable content of fictional origins being tolerated in our society; what others think about me liking certain things about this stuff or what they think about me approving of it doesn't interest me the slightest bit.
It's not a question of me compromising, it's a question of the society acknowldeging the fact that this type of content is entirely harmless.
I'm fine with this stuff and don't have to compromise with it, as I'm already aware of it being harmless; society is stating it falsely for being something offensive and inappropriate; why would I feel the need to cope with that attitude?
Sure, if people think like that... but their opinion and this opinion being labeled as ''right'' in society shouldn't render other opinions, in this case, mine, as ''inferior''.
If someone aims to me acknowleding their opinion, they have to give me a reason to agree with them, or to grasp atleast the core of their statements, supporting it with valid proof.
This isn't the case with anime-related material in our society. That's what I'm criticising, I don't sense anything that contradicts with my statement here.
We have an incomplete, official product with an inofficial (and also illegal) patch, and this patch isn't even out yet, nor is there any evidence that it will ever come out.
To be honest, I think it will come out as well, but that doesn't mean that there is any proof for this actually happening at a point.
Demonbane, huh?
I'm still looking for hardcopies of Mangagamer's older titles... Kira Kira and De... no wait, it wasn't Demonbane, but Deardrops that I'm having in mind.
Well, I've heard a lot of good things about Yume Miru Kusuri, but personally, I find it not as appealing and don't understand the hype about it, for example (and quite frankly, I don't give two shits about what's the deal with that title, it got recommended to me often enough already and I still decline to give it a try).
Well, I tried getting a friend of me into Shuffle, but yeah... instead of reading, je just skipped all the text and got right to the H-scenes. >_>
Wasn't really his cup of tea, so I really hope Jast won't cease bringing out RPG-types of games; that might get him into trying them out. :)
But yes, this is getting a bit off-topic here, I'm having a talent for that it seems.
''Backlash Group''?
I've never heard about that, what exactly is this so-called ''Backlash Group''? :o
Well, I'm not really a teamplayer (who would have guessed, after my recent statements >_>), so joining groups isn't my thing.
I'm not even using forums too frequently, since I don't have much to add, except for when someone makes recommendations as to what titles could be localized, or what my impressions about a game I've played are.
The former is me simply upvoting and approving of certain titles I would love to see being localized as well while the latter is simply not as viable of an option, since I've barely had the time to play Visual Novels.
I believe the last one that I finished to play through wass ''Demon Master Chris''; I would love to play more lenghty titles, but I often just can't bring myself starting these.
That's not to say that I don't buy them though, since I will probably get back to them sooner, or later.
Making a company on my own is... not a good idea.
I'm not a leader, I'm a supporter, a ''moral form of support'', as I'm lacking the technical know-how how to insert translated text, the knowledge of being able to read Japanese fluently as well as being bad at organizing things. Not to mention that I don't like learning new things, I'm fine with the way I am, to be honest, and hate constant change, even though it happenes frequently, even right now, when writing this comment.
And since me joining a group isn't a viable option either, this is already doomed to fail even before it started; as mentioned before, I don't have any interest trying to localize anything ever either.
Technically, I'm still a betatester for the German translation of ''Planetarian'', but I haven't checked out that site for quite a while now (aside from just now looking up the title of the VN in question again. ^-^''), but I find it boring, even though I'm still right at the beginning and just read like two chapters, or so.
Just not my thing... I will probably leave it as it is, it's not like I have to play it after all.
Also, I don't really like the leader of the translation group.
Anyways, me being involved in anything like that will probably never happen for serious.
You make it sound like I want to expel genres I don't like and replace them with the ones I like.
That is not the case, and a misconception.
I don't mind other genres being present, even the ones I'm not into; but I'm setting my focus on the stuff I like.
Isn't that understandable? To me, it makes perfect sense, and that's all that matters to me.
How would it get me closer to my goal... well, I would negotiate, of course.
If the outcome isn't something I'm satisfied with, I will most likely decline, but might try coping with the situation.
Releasing a censored game however would make me sick... I just can't stand it, under no circumstances, I'm literally allergic to censorship, figuratively speaking.
I myself can't do much on my own behalf anyways; I can just try making people aware of Visual Novels as a genre and try making it appeal to them, while also making sure not to give off the impression of forcing my standards onto them.
I'm having a thing with words, if I do say so myself, so I'm confident in being able to get my desired outcome.
If not, there are other publishers as well one could approach.
This is, of course, just a hypothetical thought though, me ever considering partaking in such a massive undertaking won't possibly happen ever, so it's out of the question anyways.
A game gets licensed, or not; I buy what's on the market, I certainly won't go and cry a river if a title I want isn't available.
I will be annoyed though if a title I want is available, but censored.
What is present on the market is what I can chose from; sure, can make suggestions, but how likely is it those being picked up?
Unlikely, very unlikely.
So, all I can chose from is what's available on the market while giving suggestions; it's not like the standards of selection of purchases varies now, it's still the exact same.
Buying what's available and what appeals to me.
If there's nothing that appeals to me (which can surprisingly happen easily), then I'm not bothering too much with it and my focus turns to other things.
Perfect attitude, if you ask me.
If you know something has to be cut, don't localize it to begin with.
That's the kind of boldness I'm talking about. :)
If you know a group of lolicons wanting to start a business, tell me.
Shining Star themselves stated in a mail that they have no desire to consider an English localisation themselves due to them not having a suitable staff, but that they are in the process of making a Chinese one.
I want to see Marunomi being officially localised so badly, and even wrote in a German thread a small review (well, it was initially supposed to be more of a ''personal impression'' while elaborating on the various aspects of the game, to be honest) about it.
Said review.
But yes, finding people being interested in loli-themed visual novels will be though... I mean, it's pretty common and I'm sure a lot of people are into it as well, but how many of them would like to take the risk, know how to run a business and have the technical understanding as well as bilingual knowledge to translate and insert the text?
I don't have anything of those necessities. :o
I would love to see Shining Star and Bakery succeed in the west with their respective titles, especially Bakery, as I love their gameplay systems, but I couldn't possibly add much to that.
That's what I mean - I'm more of a moral pillar of support, at best; I can try spreading awareness, but that's pretty much about it.
@Dark_Shiki
No, I haven't yet.
I might do it in the next few days though, I will see. :)
I just overflew it after you've posted it, so I couldn't give a proper opinion as of now.
Approving of censorship for the sake of them being ever released to begin with neither.
What good would it do to make these games come to the west, if having to censor them would become a sad standard for these games over time, which I think would possibly happen?
Yet, Littlewitch Romanesque hasn't been cut, as far as I know.
I don't dare questioning the opinions behind the people leading this as a business in public.
I might make up my mind about it and ask myself if their actions are being justified, or not, but in the end, I know nothing about how a business words, so what right would I have to question them?
I could give my two cents, sure, but would my opinion still have a point, when not knowing anything about how business with Visual Novel-type of games works?
I don't know about what Peter would have said back then; I can see the implied outcome that you are trying to point at though.
''Probably not.'' is what you want to hear, yet I can't say that with a clear conscience, since I just started actively collecting (and playing again) Visual Novels some time last year's June, or so (atleast that's the time where I bought my first title from J-list,''Shuffle!'').
There might be a good chance for him to think like that; again, I'm not making up my mind about that, as I don't dare to speak for what other people think either, unless it's a demographic sort of question, perhaps.
I don't know how risky exactly he deems such content to be; I don't know how exactly the Kokoro scenes and the ones of her classmate are, so I can't take these as a reference to try measuring this either.
I guess he should elaborate on that for himself, if he thinks of it as necessary.
Assuming that the previously stated question is ''Probably not.'', then yes, he probably wouldn't bother with such titles.
But again, that's what I prefer: Complete products over a butchered one, even if it means that a title or even a whole genre won't be localized to begin with (yes, even loli; it's not that important to me to see these games being localized, after all; I just wished that society would reconsider about deeming it the ultimate evil, if these types of games are being extensively localized or not is more of an added bonus, so to speak).
Why would I not be able to have both of these aspects?
If anything, the only party to blame for things being like that now is society in itself.
If society wouldn't consider it the ultimate evil for no apparent reason, publishers wouldn't be in fear about having to make cuts about certain types of their games.
If society would finally get that stick out of its butt, then this would most likely encourage the release of more edgy titles, as well as publishers not having to think twice about censorship, as it wouldn't be too big of a deal anymore.
If I had to be given the choice, then yes, I'd still prefer zero censorship over enhanced variety of games to chose from.
This is my opinion about it.
"No, I haven't yet.
I might do it in the next few days though, I will see. :)
I just overflew it after you've posted it, so I couldn't give a proper opinion as of now."
I feel like that post probably took 5x longer to write than it would've taken to read my article and evaluate the arguments.
Probably. :P
I will get back to it though; I'm tired and have to get out early tomorrow to go to work.
Most likely, I will give you my two cents about it the next few days, or so.
I put it this way none of my friends I meet in real life are interested in these forums they are who I consider not interested in the community. Anyone active is. Though we tend to stick within circles of similar interest.
I'd say if you blame society but won't do anything, and expect everything to go your way or just change, there isn't much I can say to you in regards to the subject. Without it feeling demoralizing. I feel you have a self defeating attitude about this.
"Perfect attitude, if you ask me.
If you know something has to be cut, don't localize it to begin with.
That's the kind of boldness I'm talking about."
Then you'd be better off requesting MangaGamer to bring your games over.
Since that is their policy. Though they personally haven't set any guide lines on what exact content they wouldn't bring be willing to bring over. You already have a account make a thread about it and ask people you know, or see what people want it too and like the games and see what feedback you get. You can also do the ask.fm
EchelonV is a good buddy of mine from hongfire. He is into loli and other more extreme stuff and he wants the Inyouchuu games licensed and through our mutual interest and his compassion, his gathered my support. He also might chime in on the subject. His MG thread.
I've requested games like Monster Park 2 from Trois but I already know that is a hard sell to localization companies due to its contents.
I thought of mangagamer as just being faster then jast before but I guess they're more reliable. Though sekai project is still good.
"Though they personally haven't set any guidelines on what exact content they wouldn't bring be willing to bring over."
They have.
I remember Kouryuu stating that the character has to be old enough to understand what sex is.
They've also made other comments:
"So would Monobeno be too loli/risky for Mangagamer to acquire?
I hadn't even heard of this before today.
How young looking can a loli/shota be before Mangagamer wont touch it?
Well, we released Koihime Musou with Rinrin and Shuri, but it's probably safe to say red-backpack territory is right out.
Has Imopara's success(or so I've heard) shifted your opinions about going after games with more prominent loli content? Do you think that mangagamer will chance something that pushes the envelope further in the near future, or is that about as far as you think it'll go for now?
Well, that's a bit hard to decide. It's not like we're opposed to releasing games with lolis, but we have to make sure we stay within the law. We don't really have much more room we can push in regards to that envelope.
So yes, Mangagamer also avoids loli content. They clearly avoid games with sexual content involving prepubescent characters or characters that are going through early puberty. It sounds like ImoPara was their absolute lower boundary of what they'd consider licensing in terms of loli content.
Cool Shiki I didn't know that! Is now good to know and I can reference this now.
Anything on other extreme content not just loli, lol. It isn't my particular field of interest.
Still not sure if Monster Park content would fly sounds like the loli might get the pass but the rest?
"Anything on other extreme content not just loli, lol. "
I mean... they're working on Euphoria. My guess is their bar on most types of extreme content is nonexistent, although I have no idea what their stance on bestiality is (not my particular field of interest). My speculative guess is that Monster Park wouldn't trigger any policy red flags. Why not ask them on Ask.fm? They're pretty responsive.
I was think that and will do. I need to make a account. This seems to be a clear way for a direct response. I kinda thought they might reply on the forum.
I came here from the old JAST forums. I’ve argued with multiple users on the old forums (under the username “B173 M3”) when censorship in a game becomes known.
I have only one thing to say about this whole thing: You’re not even trying anymore, are you?
Out of all the times you’ve censored your games, I’ve heard a common argument: “We’re did it to avoid legal troubles.” I’m not even going to get into this whole issue about how asnine these fears have gotten for risk of giving any further legitimacy to them.
I’ve been with you guys for a while, and I’ve seen the controversies that erupted over your censoring of games like X-Change 3 and Kazoku Keikaku. Over the years, I’ve heard the argument about your fear of legal issues time and time again.
What’s different this time? You’re not even even using that argument anymore: You’re saying you had to censor it due to the fact that your translators had an issue with the content.
Peter, I’ve been playing games released by JAST and its sister companies since 2006, and every time a censorship issue crops up, I’ve always had this nagging suspicion that either you or your staff had personal issues with loli/shota content, and that it was adversely affecting your approach to localizing your games.
Now that you’ve come out and stated that you’re censoring this because of fear of losing your translators who seem to have moral objections over the content, this confirms it.
Why is this significant? This means that even if loli/shota was considered unambiguously legal everywhere, there’s still no guarantee you’ll keep your localizations uncensored, because someone in JAST may push to censor a game because they have a personal issue with its content.
Seriously, you guys at JAST are claiming that there are plenty of fan translators out there willing to offer a restoration patch. If you’re that confident that you’re willing to even willing to tell players to look for mods that have been closely associated with pirated content, then what the hell is stopping you from finding translators that have a stomach for these things?
This isn’t even mentioning how long it’s taken for you guys to even get close to announcing anything resembling a release date for your games after you announced them. How long was Starless sitting in vaporware status before you finally announced their release date and your intention to censor it? Five years, maybe?
I hope you guys that have consistently defended JAST whenever these games get censored feel like complete buffoons right now (I’m looking at you, Dark_Shiki). Pete has become so used to having you “fans” back him up them in the face of anti-censorship complaints, he no longer even has to resort to using BS excuses of legal trouble to get away with censoring a game.
I’m not even going to mince words, Peter: If you can’t even get either your staff members’ or your own personal issues in line, then get the hell out of localizing eroge and let Mangagamer take over.
Even if MG isn’t completely open about loli, losing you guys to them wouldn’t mean much because they’re still much more open about such content and far more likely to release their games on time.
"I hope you guys that have consistently defended JAST whenever these games get censored feel like complete buffoons right now (I'm looking at you, Dark_Shiki)."
Actually, if you want to know how I feel, you're welcome to read this:
How many times have you argued with my "B173 M3" alt account over legal concerns during the Kazoku Keikaku fiasco?
Let me quote myself again:
"I'm not even going to get into this whole issue about how asnine these (legal) fears have gotten for risk of giving any further legitimacy to them."
If you'd prefer to say your piece and leave, that's fine. Otherwise my counter-argument is already written. Take a look if you want to discuss further.
grgspunk: "Pro-censorship dipshits like you are the reason why companies like JAST can get away with censoring their titles time and time again.
Get the hell out of my VN market."
That's not terribly mature, and indicates that you probably didn't read past the title. Your comment joins the ranks of
"Like anyone gives a fuck about your shitty opinion."
I hope you're proud of yourself.
While this is less about Shiny Days.
Don't we have a chance to see how this plays out.
I for one like many would like to have faith and while I think the cuts on Starless were over zealous and the real concern on bestiality used as a maneuver to censor more I wanna give this a chance. I already own Starless and will notice any issues, but I also want the game to succeed for Empress.
Of course I have concern when reading about the X-Change 3 and KK stuff. I wasn't active at that time but have read up about it and even the later official patch was altered some what.
But i'm willing to put trust with PP on this because of the past issues, though their twitter posts makes me wonder, if they are trying to sell a game or put people off? Various other things make me concerned about JAST. But at the same time they have delivered on lots of stuff too.
I think we should wait for the release and see how the fan-patch is, I will have the anger like you grgspunk because Starless is my favorite eroge game if my trust is for naught.
Other then mayclubX, X-Change 3, and KK what other games have JAST&co released with censoring issues? I own nearly every game so I'd like to know.
Do you also know what games had translation issues or liberties taken?
What's the question you're asking? Do you want a list of games JAST has censored, a list of censored games that J-List has stocked, or what?
This forum needs an edit function.
Dark_Shiki, the only thing I can say about your opinion piece is that your hypocrisy speaks volumes–You blatantly object to the censorship of MoeNovel’s If My Heart Had Wings, yet you support JAST’s act of censoring this title.
Over what reason, you ask? MoeNovel was trying to appease a different audience, while JAST was supposedly coerced into doing so (out of legal concerns, at that). What kind of reasoning is this?
I don’t even need to read the entire thing to show you how full of shit you are. A simple skim will suffice–Any further, and I may risk damaging some of my brain cells.
Pete’s statement about how he had to censor this title to appease his staff over their personal issues just opened up a new can of worms: There doesn’t even need to be a legal problem for them to have a reason to censor their titles.
I don’t think this seems to have registered in your mind. Peter just disclosed that this had to happen because his translators will quit unless he did so. This is a personal issue, not a legal one.
After all, if a title can get censored due to personal issues within JAST’s staff (or Peter himself), what’s stopping them from censoring this title due to marketing issues? What was preventing them from censoring Shiny Days out of a want to appeal to people who are sensitive to loli/shota? What was preventing them from censoring it out of a desire to appeal to a “wider audience” like MoeNovel did?
There was no coercion from my perspective. At least, not where I live: The US.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but I couldn’t give two fucks about what goes on in Canada, Australia, or Europe. Even if they were coerced to censor according to the laws of the Canucks, Aussies, Brits and Euros, there’s that little possibility that they could’ve kept an uncensored version for us “Jesuslanders” and altered just the Canadian/Austrailian/British/European release.
You say they this was an act of “state-sponsored” or “coerced” censorship, but in reality, even if they supposedly were “coerced”, it wasn’t coming from all the regions they intended to release this game, was it?
Imagine that. Even if I, as an American, were to magically change all the laws in my country to make it so that loli is unquestionably protected, I have no way of changing the laws in those “other regions”. It’ll still be censored in my region due to the fact that it has to conform to the laws of the regions outside of my country, and JAST is too half-assed to release multiple versions of the game.
That’s not even taking into account they’ve already made it clear that this whole charade was due to personal issues instead of legal ones.
Do you realize how shitty of an excuse/reasoning this is? If what goes on in the R2/R3 territories is so important, then they should either make multiple versions for each respective region (and leave the Jesusland version alone), or give the R2/R3 localization work to someone else.
Otherwise, I have no problems with the idea of JAST ditching those “other” regions.
Your long-running obsession and paranoia over the legality of loli/shota content is just the tip of the iceberg–I’m pretty sure plenty of “fans” agree with you. That alone is a major contributor to JAST’s willingness to censor multiple titles it should’ve known to avoid licensing. It’s also a major contributor to why JAST isn’t even willing to test the boundries of what it wants to release.
After all, where’s the incentive to not censor or push the boundries of content when you’ve got a legion of white knights at your side, ready to defend every decision you make, regardless of anything?
Let me quote myself once more. Except this time, it’s from your own comment section:
“Pro-censorship dipshits like you are the reason why companies like JAST can get away with censoring their titles time and time again.
Get the hell out of my VN market.”
Other then mayclubX, X-Change 3, and KK what other games have JAST & co like Peach Princess released with censoring issues?
I wanted to know like how we know with MG and Hiragushi.
I also wanna know what games had translation issues or liberties taken?
I read Do You Like Horny Bunnies? was one.
Reading some of the translation on Twitter pics from Starless also had me wondering this.
I own a lot of games from JAST and we know MG's track record and how they have changed.
"I don't even need to read the entire thing to show you how full of shit you are. A simple skim will suffice--Any further, and I may risk losing damaging some of my brain cells."
I noticed, since you bring up points I've already addressed in the article. If you're not even going to bother to read my arguments in their entirety, then I'm not going to bother to dignify your argument with a response. Good day.
@Murderous Int: I suggest creating a new topic to discuss your concerns. It's a broad topic that I alone can't fully address. Also, it's a topic of general interest that deserves its own thread, especially since JAST does not notify customers on store pages that elements have been altered. We could definitely use a thread where all information on the topic is collected and summarized, perhaps even with links to patches that restore the content. Once the information is collected, perhaps you could write an article that summarizes for the casual but interested reader.