Official Post about Shiny Days

[grgspunk]

I don't know if this is going to fall on deaf ears, but I can always try, Shiki. You're not willing to justify your reasoning as to why you're somehow able to distinguish what makes this case so special compared to MoeNovel's when a legal issue was never the problem.

As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if you actually read Peter's first posts at the beginning of the thread. I think he made it pretty clear that the translators had a problem with the content--Otherwise, he would've said something along the lines of we did it for the protection our translators, instead of mentioning how they had to quit.

Remember, you're saying you "endorse" JAST's censorship of this game. Fuck, you even have the audacity to claim that our stance on anti-censorship is dangerous for freedom of speech, while continously presenting example after example of how our freedoms have been eroded by governmental organizations that want to destroy them.

Man, where does this shit end? How can we combat censorship if we have to let companies roll us over whenever they commit self-censorship. I don't know about you, but I can count far more instances of self-censorship than I have seen government-induced censorship.

Yes. Censorship is evil. Government censorship is evil. But you know what's even more "evil". Self-censorship.

Now you see where my priorities lie? I'm demanding the companies hold themselves accountable for themselves. This example of JAST censoring it due to the translators' personal issues is a testament to how badly it needs to happen. Because, like I've said before, this was never a legal issue to begin with.

So with that in mind, why are you expecting me to seriously take your concerns about how you supposedly support the censorship of Shiny Days to the detriment of us fans that actually have legitimate concerns about their localization practices?

[Nandemonai]

Murderous_Int: As far as “translation issues” go, pretty much every single old game was not translated very well. Remember MangaGamer’s disastrously awful translation quality right when they launched? In general, the average quality was one or two steps above MangaGamer’s “translations” in those days. DYLHB was translated by ‘real’ G-Collections (i.e. before they got bought by Jast and were actually run by CD-Bros from Japan).

Translators for games were … sketchy in the old days. Even the real game industry translators in the late 90s and early 2000s were often terrible (look at the initial release of Final Fantasy Tactics). Many of the pros that were around in those days wouldn’t go near ero with a ten-foot pole. It took the days when fan translators were willing to work on hentai scanlations and fan patches for h-games to change that by increasing the amount of skilled people willing to work on porn.

Even with my limited Japanese knowledge I can tell from listening to dialog in older games that often the translation’s wrong. And from my experience retranslating Nocturnal Illusion, that game’s translation was atrocious. Wooden, missed a lot of nuance, sometimes seemed to give up and take random guesses at what the text was supposed to mean … whoever translated it barely seemed to care at times.

[grgspunk]

This just occured to me right now.

Shiki, you said that my previous comment I made on your page is like saying “Like anyone gives a fuck about your shitty opinion.” You couldn’t be further off from the truth.

If I really believed that, I’d be totally delusional, because it’s obvious that there are people who care about your opinion.

Man, I honestly do wish nobody gave a fuck about your “shitty opinion”. If that was the case, maybe Peter would be a lot more responsive to complaints about their censorship since they wouldn’t be drowned out by the people trying to defend it, and maybe JAST wouldn’t be as likely to censor their games for fear of a fan backlash.†

I’ve seen this before. It’s happened on the NISA forums with the censorship of Mugen Souls and Criminal Girls, it’s happened on the Idea Factory International forums with the censorship of Monster Monpiece, it happened with Seven Seas’ cancellation of Kodomo no Jikan, ad infinitum.† Where does this end?

[Murderous_Int]

Yeah it does need to be talked about, building trust with consumers and JAST.

It is a hot topic.

I will set it up in a few days. I also need time to sort out the various resources I know regarding it.

Thanks for the info Nandemonai. I know Bible Black and Discipline also have issues being old games with the translation and there are patches for BB.

[sanahtlig]

grgspunk: "As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure if you actually read Peter's first posts at the beginning of the thread. I think he made it pretty clear that the translators had a problem with the content--Otherwise, he would've said something along the lines of we did it for the protection our translators, instead of mentioning how they had to quit."

I'll throw you a bone, since you do bring up a point that concerns me. Show a bit of respect, and maybe I'll address some of your other points. You should perhaps consider that I'm not the mindless sycophant you seem to think I am.

Peter Payne: "@Dark_Shiki, another aspect of this is, we've got staff members who might potentially quit if we forced them to "suck it up" and be associated with certain themes. We have to consider this when we make these decisions."

Dark_Shiki: "I've been very focused on the Shiny Days debate and didn't read this til now. Since this is the second time this has come up I can no longer dismiss it as I have until now.

Ok, I'll buy the legal argument. Staff members are entitled to work without fear of the law looking over their shoulders. There's content in Starless that could be legally problematic, even in the US. It's a nukige, so the Miller Test might not be a good defense. Contractors working in other countries have even more reason to be worried. I'll buy your argument here.

But with this comment and others you're implying something completely different. You're implying that staff have a right to dictate what content is socially acceptable for release. Censorship by legal coercion, I'll grudgingly accept. But censorship because staff find content distateful? Screw that. If I ever thought that was the primary reason JAST was censoring a product, I'd take my business elsewhere. If staff don't want to be associated with a product, here's a solution: don't include them in the credits, or use a pseudonym. Simple. If they still complain, they shouldn't be working at an eroge company. Period. I hear MoeNovel is looking for competent staff members that are willing to gut eroge to make them suitable for 12-year-old French girls. Point your ex-staff members in their direction. Tell them not to let the door hit them on the way out."

Source

So yes, this does concern me. I think you should read Kanna's quote in my article before you leap to conclusions about Shiny Days, however.

[Murderous_Int]

Peter Payne: "@Dark_Shiki, another aspect of this is, we've got staff members who might potentially quit if we forced them to "suck it up" and be associated with certain themes. We have to consider this when we make these decisions."

That argument didn't make sense to me. Since everybody knows what Starless is if they google-fu. Even censored those associated themes are supposed to be still in the game from the yoga tweet.

[grgspunk]

@Dark_Shiki

"But with this comment and others you're implying something completely different. You're implying that staff have a right to dictate what content is socially acceptable for release. "

They can definitely at least have an influence the company. Casual conversations about offensive content can turn into serious ones. Staff members can message concerns about personal objections to their manager at any point in time.

We don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

Censorship by legal coercion, I'll grudgingly accept. But censorship because staff find content distateful? Screw that. If I ever thought that was the primary reason JAST was censoring a product, I'd take my business elsewhere. "

Clearly, not every translator thinks the same. If that were the case, nobody would be working for JAST in the first place.

"If staff don't want to be associated with a product, here's a solution: don't include them in the credits, or use a pseudonym. Simple. If they still complain, they shouldn't be working at an eroge company. Period. I hear MoeNovel is looking for competent staff members that are willing to gut eroge to make them suitable for 12-year-old French girls. Point your ex-staff members in their direction. Tell them not to let the door hit them on the way out."

Okay, this sounds good. But here's the question: Why isn't JAST doing this in the first place? Why does Peter even mention how he has to be wary about telling his staff to "suck it up" about being associated with certain themes if he can just not include them?

If concerns about laws outside of America are such an issue, why does Pete even bother mentioning their translators?

"So yes, this does concern me. I think you should read Kanna's quote in my article before you leap to conclusions about Shiny Days, however."

Like I told you, what goes on in countries outside of America has no relevance to me, nor would said non-American countries want me to butt in on their business. There's nothing I can do about regions that I have no control over, and as a consumer in the US, there's no reason for me worry about them.

I shouldn't have to have my products be affected to comply with regulations in a country I have no business caring about. This is the reason why I consider it indefensibly half-assed when JAST is choosing not to release a censored non-American version and an uncensored American version.†

It doesn't even address the point of how digital distribution practically eliminates the concern of dealing with customs. Why wasn't this taken into consideration?

In the end, if the "international market" is a factor, then they're using a "one-size-fits all" approach in the opposite direction--They're censoring themselves to comply with the lowest common denominator.

If that's the case, if push comes to shove, I'd have more to gain from them exiting the non-American "international" market so that they don't have to worry about complying with the laws of multiple different regions. Force the R2/R3 audience to import.

[Murderous_Int]

Don't know if you know but i'm already importing all my games from JAST.

It's only thanks to up1.co.uk I've been able to obtain them with less hassle the same with MG after they left the dying EU currency. Some I have imported directly from them that up1 don't have.

[grgspunk]

@Dark_Shiki: Another thing too is that Kanna referenced a survey that Sekai Project released for School Days HQ, which I believe they did back in 2008/2009 if memory serves correctly. For those of you not in the know, the survey asked users various questions regarding what content is illegal in their respective countries. I remember taking it myself.

Am I the only one who finds it absurd that they resorted tosurveying random internet users whose identities/locations/professions can't be verified to reach conclusions on what is and isn't legal in various countries?

I would say a legal firm would be a much better source for such information than some anonymous survey where anybody from anywhere can make anything up.

[sanahtlig]

The critical factor you don't seem to be considering (which I brought up in my article, which you apparently still haven't read): they appear to have staff in other countries with laws against virtual child pornography.

Nicholas Graham: "Personal views of freedom of speech and censorship don't mean anything when we have staff who are in countries where [child porn] laws not only exist but are used to prosecute individuals who are in possession of such content."

Telling them to work on an (official) uncensored version puts those staff at risk. Making the uncensored version unofficial allows these staff to claim, "Nope, I didn't work on that."

They are releasing the uncensored version you're asking for; they're just not advertising or promoting it. What is your issue exactly?

[Kisaten]

@grgspunk

"If concerns about laws outside of America are such an issue, why does Pete even bother mentioning their translators? "

-It's possible that the personal issue are relating to their home countries? "this is gray area in my country and there is a chance I could get charged, and I don't want to take that chance" I doubt it was something as simple as "I personally don't like these themes hnnnnggg¬Ö" but as it has been mentioned, there may be a way to keep them out of the rotation, I would guess it depends on how JAST is picking/hiring their translation team

"Like I told you, what goes on in countries outside of America has no relevance to me, nor would said non-American countries want me to butt in on their business. There's nothing I can do about regions that I have no control over, and as a consumer in the US, there's no reason for me worry about them. "

-You may not care about the other regions, but I think for a company who has customers in those regions and wants to promote VNs/make them more widely available, it's easier to work to the most restrictive places and allow for a patch for those who want to restore the cut content. I don't know about the numbers game for hard copies, though multiple releases may be an easy possibility for the download releases, (they'd need to block countries or have a disclaimer for each region, so in the end a patch seems easiest and safest if they want to cover their ass.

"In the end, if the "international market" is a factor, then they're using a "one-size-fits all" approach in the opposite direction--They're censoring themselves to comply with the lowest common denominator."

-if you want to raise the overall spread of VNs and acceptance of extreme content doesn't it make sense to start from the lowest¬Ö no point preaching to the choir, it won't change what other countries think¬Ö

"If that's the case, if push comes to shove, I'd have more to gain from them exiting the non-American "international" market so that they don't have to worry about complying with the laws of multiple different regions. Force the R2/R3 audience to import."

I think part of JAST's goals is to help build the VN scene and make them more accessible, there seems to have been a lot of international coverage when Littlewitch came out on steam, why would they ignore potential fans/market?

[sanahtlig]

"Am I the only one who finds it absurd that they resorted to surveying random internet users whose identities/locations/professions can't be verified to reach conclusions on what is and isn't legal in various countries?

I would say a legal firm would be a much better source for such information than some anonymous survey where anybody from anywhere can make anything up.

"

Actually, you're wrong. Just as important as legal truth is what customers *think* their law is. JAST wants to sell games to these customers. If they think the game is illegal in their country, they won't buy it--even if the game is legal. JAST doesn't have the resources to not only write up an import guide for every single country they do business with, but keep it updated to make sure it accounts for the changing legal landscape. Doing so would be kind of pointless anyway, since obscenity law is often based on "community standards" which is legalese for "we don't know what's illegal, and we're not telling."

[grgspunk]

The critical factor you don't seem to be considering (which I brought up in my article, which you apparently still haven't read): they appear to have staff in other countries with laws against virtual child pornography.

Nicholas Graham: "Personal views of freedom of speech and censorship donít mean anything when we have staff who are in countries where [child porn] laws not only exist but are used to prosecute individuals who are in possession of such content."

Again. This still has zero relevance to me because I'm having a product intended for consumption in my country being affected to comply with laws that I have no business dealing with.

If they're worried about their staff getting arrested because they're operating in countries that don't allow such countries, then JAST seriously has to stop outsourcing their translators.

"They are releasing the uncensored version you're asking for; they're just not advertising or promoting it. What is your issue exactly?"

If I'm getting this right, you're implying that JAST is making an "unofficial" patch.

Excuse me, but what? All they're doing is adding unnecessary hoops. If they're not associating themselves with it, theoretical patch still not guaranteed to happen. Not to mention it's still not doing their reputation for censoring or fearing certain content any better.

Even so, they're still letting the non-American translators work on the "questionable content".† If this is what's happening, then what was the point of them being worried about them getting into trouble due to legal issues in their respective countries in the first place?

They could let the translators work if it was unofficial, but if it's "official", then they'll get into trouble because they'll get caught...? Huh? How is this any less "illegal"?

If theyr'e claiming legal issues in other countries was putting non-American translators at risk, since when does working an "unofficial" patch make it any more "legal" or less likely to get arrested if they could be anonymous?

What was stopping them from making said translators anonymous?

[grgspunk]

@Kisaten

"-It’s possible that the personal issue are relating to their home countries? “this is gray area in my country and there is a chance I could get charged, and I don’t want to take that chance” I doubt it was something as simple as “I personally don’t like these themes hnnnnggg¬Ö” but as it has been mentioned, there may be a way to keep them out of the rotation, I would guess it depends on how JAST is picking/hiring their translation team"

Here’s a way: It’s called firing and hiring.

“You may not care about the other regions, but I think for a company who has customers in those regions and wants to promote VNs/make them more widely available, it’s easier to work to the most restrictive places and allow for a patch for those who want to restore the cut content. I don’t know about the numbers game for hard copies, though multiple releases may be an easy possibility for the download releases, (they’d need to block countries or have a disclaimer for each region, so in the end a patch seems easiest and safest if they want to cover their ass.”

"I think part of JAST’s goals is to help build the VN scene and make them more accessible, there seems to have been a lot of international coverage when Littlewitch came out on steam, why would they ignore potential fans/market?"

Here’s the thing–I don���t give two shits about JAST trying to appeal to a “wider audience” or making them more “accessible”. These games are meant to appeal to certain crowds. Even within Japan, story-heavy all-ages ren’ai games are designed to appeal to a specific non-mainstream niche.

If the concept of making more VNs “accessible” means I have to accept butchered content for my games, then the so-called “wider audience” can go kiss my ass. If content editing is what’s needed to promote this concept, then the concept itself is a liability.

This very concept is what caused MoeNovel to destroy If My Heart Had Wings, and I’ll be damned if this sort of approach to localization is somehow a respectable one.

When it comes to localizations, the audience is the one to change, not the games themselves.

[sanahtlig]

"If I'm getting this right, you're implying that JAST is making an "unofficial" patch.

Excuse me, but what?"

*sigh*

This is why I told you to read more than just the title. To turn your own words back at you, I hope you're feeling foolish now. Did you honestly think you could jump in, skim the first page, and instantly grasp a debate that's been raging for several days now? That's why I wrote the article! So people like you could see the issue at a glance without wading through all this nonsense.

"If they're not associating themselves with it, theoretical patch still not guaranteed to happen."

Then don't buy the game til the patch is released, and tell everyone else to do the same. It's a fair argument. According to a source on Reddit, the Starless restoration patch is already finished, and the game isn't even out yet. That bodes well for Shiny Days. Odds are looking very good that the restored scenes will even feature professionally demosaiced art.

[What? How? Why? WTF?!]

Plausible deniability. But does it really matter, as long as you get what you want--a 100% uncensored version?

I was also concerned about relying on fan restoration patches. But since JAST has convinced me that these patches have their full support, I'm comfortable standing behind this as a general policy for future releases, and I'll continue to stand behind the policy until JAST fails to come through.

[sanahtlig]

@grgspunk: BTW, your input is welcome and in fact desired in this thread.

People's views on mosaic censorship?

We were hoping a trueblood anti-censorship person like yourself would weigh in.

[grgspunk]

@Dark_Shiki

This is why I told you to read more than just the title. To turn your own words back at you, I hope you're feeling foolish now. Did you honestly think you could jump in, skim the first page, and instantly grasp a debate that's been raging for several days now? That's why I wrote the article! So people like you could see the issue at a glance without wading through all this nonsense.

I jumped in on this because JAST has established a history of censoring their titles. If they have an issue with people like me who don't want to read over 13 pages of material or go to fans' blogs to "get" what they're "going at", then they should've never established a history of censoring ANY of their games for any reason.

I don't feel foolish for jumping on it because I didn't have any reason to trust these guys' approach to localizing content. That's an branding issue that they could do well to fix by not cutting content in the first place.

"Then don't buy the game til the patch is released, and tell everyone else to do the same. It's a fair argument. According to a source on Reddit, the Starless restoration patch is already finished, and the game isn't even out yet. That bodes well for Shiny Days. Odds are looking very good that the restored scenes will even feature professionally demosaiced art.

I don't do reddit. I never really liked the community over there.

"I was also concerned about relying on fan restoration patches. But since JAST has convinced me that these patches have their full support, I'm comfortable standing behind this as a general policy for future releases, and I'll continue to stand behind the policy until JAST fails to come through."

Honestly, it still seems pointless--This is also me speaking as a PC gamer that abhors the idea of game developers releasing a half-finished product at launch and patching it at a future date.

Plausible deniability is obviously the name of the game here, but it doesn't change the fact that their non-American translators are still supposedly at risk of getting into trouble in their respective countries. Is this supposed to be somehow safer than simply not mentioning their names in the credits?

As hopeful as it may seem that they're supporting a backdoor patch behind the scenes, I'm still not fond of the idea that JAST has to keep hiding to release their content. If they are to do uncensor patches, they'll have to pull what Huniepot did with their uncensor patch for Huniepop before they can earn my respect: Put it somewhere where people can see on their site.

[Kisaten]

@grgspunk

"Here's a way: It's called firing and hiring."

That's true, thought the effort expended in trying out new translators and hoping that you'll land a good ones might not be worth it if you have good translators already; from what I've heard the pool of people to hire is not so big either.

"If the concept of making more VNs "accessible" means I have to accept butchered content for my games, then the so-called "wider audience" can go kiss my ass."

-I'm sure the people who are willing to deal with game + patch, and people who are happy to have access to the games not in mosaic and Japanese would probably say the same to you- not everyone is as passionate about censorship as many of the people in this forum.

"If content editing is what's needed to promote this concept, then the concept itself is a liability."

That's absolutely true, but how big of a liability is it? How many people are you cutting off (and given that they're potentially helping bring the content back unofficially- so that none of their staff will be liable -> is it so big a problem?)

"When it comes to localizations, the audience is the one to change, not the games themselves."

I think part of localization is changing the game¬Ö. mosaics being removed, the language being changed, having the game abide by the laws of the countries it will be sold in¬Ö As much as you may not like part of what they are trying to do for the VNs scene, there are many people who do appreciated it..

I'm sure if it was such a dumb idea to make games legal to play in the countries you are localizing for (and also to protect your staff if they happen to belong to one of theses countries), and hiring and licensing games is easy enough to just hire and fireaway¬Ö Dont you think that there would have already been a localization that was all "no censorship or changes whatsoever, and btw fuck laws¬Ö we do what we want"?

"jumped in on this because JAST has established a history of censoring their titles. If they have an issue with people like me who don't want to read over 13 pages of material or go to fans' blogs to "get" what they're "going at", then they should've never established a history of censoring ANY of their games for any reason. "

Why not start a "Stuff JAST/MG/SP/ETC has censored Wikia"?

[sanahtlig]

"Why not start a "Stuff JAST/MG/SP/ETC has censored Wikia"?"

That's exactly what I was suggesting to Murderous Int. If grgspunk wants to chip in, that'd be nice too. My If my Heart had Wings article should fill in the details for that game, and I'm sure grgspunk is intimately familiar with the cuts to Family Project. Seems like Nandemonai has a very good memory for cuts to earlier titles. This kind of needs to get done before the old Peach Princess boards disappear, or a lot of useful archived information there will disappear into the void.

[Kisaten]

It can probably help JAST too in a way because they can also address reasons why it was cut and there can be a good summary of the impact on the game instead of 15 pages on the forums. Discussion is great but when the same arguments are thrown around over and over again it's a little tiring...

Oh yeah, and unofficial patches can be posted without direct association to JAST so it can be a repository too.

If it's in the old JAST forums, it can probably be dug up, I'm on a few boards about dance dance revolution that have backups of stuff from the ezboard era. If DDR has stuff from the 90s, JAST should have backup or something...