Wait, I was having an idea: What if Jast would at a point make a second run of the limited edition of Shiny Days?
I remember that Mangagamer did the same with Boob Wars; if so many are complaining about it and there lacking translators that would like to add the Kokoro scenes, why not making a reprint at a point?
In the meantime, maybe someone else is free taking this up now, or people at Jast that are currently busy with other titles will agree and lend a hand.
Or, even Sekai Project, though I somehow doubt that they will bother reconsidering...
Not sure about Jast's stance about this, but I for one would rather wait 1-2 more years or so instead of buying a butchered version of Shiny Days.
That's, yet again, just my own opinion, but why not?
People seem to want it uncensored, why not pushing the project back?
But darn, I guess this won't be possible, now where people already started pre-ordering... or, is it?
It is a pre-order after all, so... hope really dies last. :/
I know this has been said before, but you say releasing the game uncensored would have "caused staff members and translators to quit" if that's the case then you should let them.
You say time and time again that you and your staff are dedicated to the localization of visual novels, yet anyone who is willing to censor said visual novels by threatening to quit clearly has no passion for the medium and should not be working for JAST.
Not going to name names, but I know for a fact that one of your translators working on this game has no problem with the content that you have deemed to be inappropriate, not to mention the fact that other company's (MangaGamer) have released titles (Koihime Musou, Imouto Paradise) with similar content and have had no issues. i should also point out that you stock both of these games so your staff cant have that much of a moral objection to said content.
As for the patch, unless you release the assets needed to create an uncensored patch (Which you likely wont) one will never be available.
Finally, what do you intent to do about the endings/story points that reference the cut scenes? Having purchased/played the Japanese version i know there are some scenes in Kotonoha/Manami routes that reference the cut scenes that now wont make sense to players who haven't played the Japanese version.
@Peter Payne
I agree with Carlos Jordan here.
Someone who wants to boycott the release of a game because of personal disbelief of the title in question being treated ''appropriately'' shouldn't be working with Jast.
That's nothing but extortion...
I will happily throw my money at Jast, if it means that I as a fan of VN's gets what I want.
The comunity of such games may be small, but the advantage of it is that they know all the better how to appreciate a publisher, his actions and finally, the games he localizes.
Almost everyone here seems to prefer a ''complete'' version over the censored one, so we all would most likely encourage you in reconsidering and doing the uncensored version anyways, even if it means pushing back the release severely.
All we can do is give our money and input, but I believe this is worth it.
In my opinion, a Publisher should focus as best as possible on pleasing their customers; it is just me saying that I would even wait 1-2 more years, if it means that I can have my desired version of Shiny Days in a way I would be happy with, but if someone else disagrees while at the same time saying that he/she wants to see the game uncensored, then it's sorta hypocritical.
After all, you can't say that you want something in a specific state, but be impatient and demand it to be made ''right this second''.
If someone can't wait, then he isn't a valuable customer, in my opinion.
Then again, all that matters in the end is how many people buy something... it's difficult.
Anyways, I don't know much about how a business works. Therefore, I'm not pretending to know, acting like a smartass.
I'm just giving my own two cents here and that's about it.
Please reconsider, Peter. :/
Almost everyone here is giving great arguments and has excellent integrity. If Jast has their foot down and will either censor or not release their games at all, then the free market will take them to task. Hopefully a bold Eroge localization company comes along that isn’t afraid of controversy. I know they would get my support. I want to make another argument that no one on here has brought up yet. The Kokoro scenes are all completely optional. If someone has problems with lolicon, they don’t have to take her route. It is called having freedom and being able to play a game as you see it. The people who complain about the optional Kokoro scenes are the same kind of people who complained about the romancable underage looking female characters in Fire Emblem Awakening (funny how no one complained about the underage male characters #doublestandard) and the people who complain about the completely optional ability to kill hookers in Grand Theft Auto (something I would never do, but I am fine with the choice existing). It is like these moral crusaders want less freedom and more restrictions in gaming if the choices “offend them”. I know this has nothing to do with why this game was censored, but it is another problem facing the industry currently. The people who will be applauding Jast’s decision are these kind of people, just wait for them to come out of the woodwork. “How dare a game have a completely optional and avoidable choice!” Is the best rebuttal that can be given to those people.
One other thing. I do feel bad for Peter Payne. The poor guy has to be the PR for the company that just pissed off an entire community not keen on censorship. I think Peter is giving the best rebuttals he can and is trying to support his company as a loyal employee. I can’t hold it against the guy, and its not like he is censoring the critics. Most in his position would not have his level of integrity and respect for dissenters. So guys, don’t be too harsh on Peter. Like they say “Don’t kill the messenger.” and Peter is a damn good messenger. It is his “empire” that is the problem.
@AnimeloverxX93, a "Restored version" is not a bad idea. We can't consider it at present, but maybe sometime in the future.
@Ronald, thanks for your comments. If you look at the anime industry overall, you might see something interesting...there are basically no new companies. The last one I can think of was Crunchyroll, founded in 2006. No new shops, new new forms of distribution of anime (this is in part thanks to Amazon, which like Kadokawa in Japan, is eating the world). Nearly all shops are as old as J-List is (people born in 1996, when I started the company, can now by porn from us). No innovation, new new ideas, and certainly no companies willing to take a risk on something like an eroge, which costs a lot to license and translate, yet cannot be marketed because "The Man" Google/Twitter/whoever will not let an adult product be marketed, and we have to do our advertising on 4chan. Steam is the only "new" thing going in visual novels, and it only forces nearly every game to become all ages only, which isn't what you're looking for.
I honestly believe we will never make any content changes to any game in the future, due to the resistance from everyone about Starless and Shiny Days. I can say that with 99.9% certainty. So hopefully this will be the last thread of this kind I'll be participating in. So I do thank everyone for your comments and feedback.
The censorship sucks but it sounds like it was either cut those scenes or not release the game. I'm glad the game is coming out. I'm glad we're getting the big, sexy boxed version filled with goodies.
"I'm obviously not able to say whether a patch will come out or not, or when, but hopefully you'll pick up on my overall tone and be reassured."
A patch will come out. Read between the lines of what Peter is saying. They can't publicly endorse it but a patch will come.
"I honestly believe we will never make any content changes to any game in the future, due to the resistance from everyone about Starless and Shiny Days. I can say that with 99.9% certainty."
Does this mean that you guys are going to pass on games that might require a modicum of censorship to be released? That would be so disappointing.
Guys I get why you're pissed. I'm bummed too. But we're in a "better than nothing" situation here. I'd much rather have these weird and wonderful things available to purchase legally (so they keep getting made/localized) than nothing at all. At some point we, as a community, need to just suck it up and accept that legal realities and the thought police make releasing games like this uncensored a near impossibility. Yes you can vote with your wallet and not support this release. But I think that will hurt the community in the long run.
I think Peter made it pretty clear he hates censorship too. He's on our side. Stomping our feet will not change the bullshit reality we live in.
Let's show him (and the Japanese publishers) we want more games not fewer.
Game pre-ordered. Please keep 'em coming.
Is it though? Is it really as impossible as they said?
As said, MG releases games with loli content, they took risk and nothing happened to them. I don’t want to spark rivalry between the localization scene and all, but if JAST really feels they can’t take the heat for some contents, just leave the project to MangaGamer or any other risk-taking competitor to do it.
@Dan The Man
I think you've misunderstood, at least in my case. i'm not having a go at peter, it's just a case of if you give into people demanding things for example in this case staff demanding that things be cut, its likely to only get worse with people beginning to demand more changes to suit their moral standards as they know they've succeeded in the past, plus as i said before those people clearly have no passion for VNs if they wish to alter the content.
As for your point about the patch, i'm sure it occurred to all of us that might be the case, but its not a guaranty, plus some people don't like the idea that the entire games not available to them without the need of applying a patch.
As for the better than nothing comment, is it really? i mean don't get me wrong i want this game to be released as soon as possible, but if delaying the release meant these issues could be resolved i'd much prefer to wait.
That being said i will keep my hopes up that the JAST staff members who truly care about VNs do resolve these issues, but until then my standpoint regarding the censorship will not change.
" it just sounds like the only major reason for censorship in this case was because of some staff members acting like pricks and boycotting the release of the game itself, by not being able to separate their personal opinion from their work.
I thought it is common that people separate their personal from their professional life."
"Why not make US-exclusive premium version then? Is that possible? I would pay extra for that.
Sorry for sounding selfish, but I don't want to be burdened by other countries's censorship laws"
I think everyone here is ignoring the fact that one or more members of the localization team may be located in countries where this content could legitimately get them in legal trouble. Recently a Canadian man was detained and charged for importing an obscene eroge (it's not improbable that the SAME guy is working on this project). Similar laws exist in Australia and the UK. Working on a US-specific version could STILL get contractors in trouble if they themselves don't live in the US.
Peter seems to be making the same pledge he made with Starless: that an uncensored version WILL be made unofficially available. Myself, I'm going to wait and see. If a patch does come out, it's timely, and it's professional, I'll just pretend this incident never happened. If I get reasonable assurance that such a patch will come out, I could even be persuaded to preorder.
As for why Littlewitch Romanesque wasn't censored, I have three guesses. First, different contractors. Second, it didn't contain blatant pedophilia. From what I understand, one or more scenes showcase pedophilia in its most offensive form, and indeed one of the characters is a *pedophile* (I know this from playing Cross Days). Third, since Sekai Project is involved, and they may have a contractually-binding stake in the license, it's possible they demanded that the scenes be cut or they wouldn't allow the game to be released (with or without their aid).
I am starting to think its less on Jast and more on Sekai Project that this ended up happening as Saya no Uta and Little Witch Romanesque both had loli content.
While I don't know all of the legal and business technicalities, is there anything preventing Overflow from working with fans to produce an "official" patch (not JAST approved, but "official" as in approved by the game developer)? After all AFAIK Shiny Days itself is not JAST or Sekai Project IP so is there really any reason the game developer couldn't just send the uncensored version of the missing scenes to people working on the patch? If this was done then there would be no reason to even have to say that the "Internet" will release a patch but instead JAST could just say that while they cannot release the game with that content that fans working with the game developer will ensure the content is available uncensored to those living in areas where it is legal. Then there would be nothing shady about this since the patch would be "official", we would be guaranteed the game will be made available uncut AND uncensored legally, and JAST still couldn't be held legally responsible since the game developer and fans did it all on their own.
"As for the better than nothing comment, is it really?"
Yes, a censored version that can be uncensored with a patch is definitely better than no English version at all. As a lolicon, I'd rather have games with loli content be cut and unofficially restored than all games with loli content being avoided with a 10ft pole.
@Dan the Man“But we’re in a “better than nothing” situation here. I’d much rather have these weird and wonderful things available to purchase legally (so they keep getting made/localized) than nothing at all. At some point we, as a community, need to just suck it up and accept that legal realities and the thought police make releasing games like this uncensored a near impossibility.”Supporting this product by sucking it up and accepting it tells the people that make these decisions that eroge customers are ok with censorship and cut content.“Stomping our feet will not change the bullshit reality we live in.”“Stomping our feet” in this thread has clearly altered Peter’s thinking about cutting future content. It did the same with Mangagamer and Soul Link/Higurashi.
"After all AFAIK Shiny Days itself is not JAST or Sekai Project IP so is there really any reason the game developer couldn't just send the uncensored version of the missing scenes to people working on the patch?"
Well, yes there's a reason. JAST licensed an English version and invested heavily to make it a reality. They likely negotiated exclusive distribution rights for an English PC version, meaning the IP for the English release belongs to JAST. Obviously JAST would have a vested interest in preventing another group from selling a more complete version; that would likely result in reduced sales of their own version.
@Dark_Shiki
You misunderstood, i want it as well. But i was saying it in the sense that said patch does not come along as there's no guaranty that it will, plus there's always the chance that the restored scenes will still be censored, in which case i might as well just stick to playing the Japanese version.
I understand that you may have people employed who live in countries like Canada, UK or Saoudi Arabia who can make a problem out of such content. And very true that people who live in such places have to think twice about purchases. But at the same time I’ll make the decision myself not to buy a copy.
Not because of “I want mah loli” mentality, but because I consider self imposed censorship to be a dangerous form of censorship. It’s taking something that is controversial, yet legal in the country your company is situated in (and I assume also the largest market?) and removes it out of fear of a scandal.
But doing this risks creating an industry standard where, even if laws don’t form an obstacle, it’s impossible to release said content beause of that standard. Furthermore it helps fuel fear and misunderstanding for people who live in countries where this content is not an issue. Because if JAST is censoring, maybe they should censor their own website and/or products, just to be sure?
An example of something similar is happening with anime the last decade. Frontal nudity has existed since the beginning days and was not a rare sight up till the end of the 90’s. Than companies started using more smoke and lightbeams to censor content in tv releases to increase disc sales. now a decade later, a show like doraemon can have lightbeams forced on it because that particular tv station is no longer willing to release the scenes in question uncensored. No changes in law were responsible, but a change in the acceptable norm. And I believe the gratuitious use of lightbeams and smoke when it was unnecessary has played a role in helping to create this norm.
Likewise, it also works the other way around. In the past, the UK had strict regulations against violent content in movies. Bruce Lee’s Enter the Dragon for example was censored for being too violent. Nowadays however that movie is as tame as a puppy compared to modern movies. The constant push of Hollywood to release such content “normalized” this to the degree that regulations changed over time.
Mangagamer is doing something similar by releasing controversial content like Oppai Sensou or Imouto Paradise, printed in the US and sold in the US online and as hardcopy on US conventions. Your own company has also played a role in this (which I consider a great thing) by releasing Little Witch Romanesque uncensored. Websites also, like Fakku who has done this by introducing the loli tag two or so months ago.
And if at some point a large platform like Steam starts accepting 18+ content (which I’m sure will happen eventually), that will be a huge step forward in setting this new norm, though it will certainly come with controversy at the start. But rather than avoiding controversy, it is seeking controversy that pushes those boundaries of what is considered acceptable and helps make this world a more tollerant place. And there may be setbacks along the way, But we’ll get there. As long as the industry itself doesn’t give up on trying.
Of course, that is a personal decision that each person has to make for themselves, be it as a member of the industry or as an individual consumer. As I had never heard of a similar case in my own country I have tested my countries laws after investigating them, by importing such explicit content through customs checks years ago. Believing that I had the law on my side and willing to use it if necessary. The first package was stuck in customs for almost a month before being released, arriving in a completely different box and wrapping, but nothing missing. Subsequent packages went without a hitch. Even an indiviual can make a difference in creating an established practice. You may consider me an idiot for having taken a calculated risk, but a large part of that is fueled by my ideology.
So I can understand if as a company you decide not to care. Shuffling projects around suitable staff members from different countries each with different laws can be an annoyance. But I hope you at least consider the effects that self imposed censorship can have on the long term. I believe that a company like Mangagamer illustrates that removing content doesn’t have to be the case.
"I am all but saying there'll be a 99.9% official patch through unofficial channels "
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Thank you. Now that I know this will be handled to my satisfaction, I'll consider writing a blog post to perhaps defuse some of the animosity.
Yeah continuing this discussions getting repetitive, i already had the game on preorder since before i even got involved in this discussion lol. Just wanted to express my hatred of censorship in stuff i love.
Now if only i could stop getting updates every time someone posts something in this thread....
To Peter: As a final addition to my previous long post. Nothing was meant as a personal insult or flame, and I don’t want to encourage some kind of boycott. Everything was purely my individual views and I’ll respect yours, whatever they will turn into.
You said earlier: "I honestly believe we will never make any content changes to any game in the future, due to the resistance from everyone about Starless and Shiny Days. I can say that with 99.9% certainty."
If this becomes reality in the future, you will have forced me to open my wallet in support.
"If this becomes reality in the future, you will have forced me to open my wallet in support."
I think you're completely missing the context of his post. Here's what he meant.
"We will no longer license games that have any content that could run afoul of international shipping laws." Applying that to Shiny Days, that means he would've never licensed it. Instead he would've licensed something nice and safe like Recettear that he could sell on Steam to mainstream gamers.