True, that interpretation is also possible. We'll see what it turns into.
I'm honestly pretty happy with his response. I think it's fine to accept there are market realities that people outside of Japan need to deal with, and as long as there is an 'unofficial patch' who cares. I am a little surprised so much of the team seemingly has a moral obligation to content in the game, but oh well.
I think an interpretation that suggests Peter will take a firmer stand against censorship in the future is naive. Especially considering statements like this:
"Shall we aim future releases at less passionate customers in the future, perhaps copy Huniepop with puzzle games instead of harder-core titles from Japan?"
I hope everyone realizes that localizing eroge is not something one does to get rich. †The customer base is tiny, piracy rates are through the roof, marketing the games is near impossible, and wages are bottom-of-the-barrel barely enough to live on. †On top of that the fanbase is incredibly toxic (visited 4chan lately?). †Steam is where the money's at. †And guess what? †Steam doesn't allow eroge.
It's abundantly clear that both JAST and Mangagamer do what they do not to maximize profits, but out of love for the genre. †If it gets to the point where localizing eroge is both unprofitable AND unappreciated, expect them to move onto greener pastures. †Expect that they won't bother to license long story-focused eroge like Shiny Days that can't be modified for release on Steam. †Expect an entire segment of the English VN market to dry up and disappear.
I think it should also be abundantly clear at this point that Peter is really pissed, perhaps even moreso than the fans in this thread. †Angry fans will get what they want in the end, and as an added bonus they'll have an excuse not to pay for it. †What about Peter? †He goes to the trouble of licensing a game for a niche market, invests tens of thousands of dollars with little prospect of any significant return, only to be harassed by both his employees and his customer base over an issue that's literally a legal quagmire. †Can you imagine how demoralizing that must be?
Many of you might not agree with Peter's decision, but at least respect the man. †He's probably done more for the English eroge market than any other person, period. †If not for him getting into the eroge localization business, it's quite possible the genre wouldn't be where it is today. †He resurrected G-Collections. †He distributed and publicized Mangagamer titles during a period when Mangagamer was in danger of going under. †He negotiated the official release of School Days, which spawned Sekai Project. †Besides all of the titles that he himself released under JAST USA, both Mangagamer and Sekai Project have inexorable ties to JAST. †Without Peter, the English eroge market as we know it possibly would not even exist. †And with no English eroge market, there may very well have been no fan translation scene, or it may have started later and been much smaller.
This guy's a hero. †Remember that when you're hurling insults at him and telling him you'd rather pirate than support his flawed releases. †He's done more for the eroge genre than all of us combined ever will, and should be respected as such.
Personal views of freedom of speech and censorship don't mean anything when we have staff who are in countries where CP laws not only exist but are used to prosecute individuals who are in possession of such content. The above is not only a risk but a serious safety concern for staff and customers. It would be immoral to ask our staff to become martyrs and put their safety and futures at risk just to localize one game.
At the end of the day, our goal is to distribute visual novels with cooperation with the original developers so their works can be enjoyed by fans outside of Japan, with fair licensing that help support the content creators so future work can made and continued to be localized. Artists have to eat too.
Since nothing happens in a vacuum, especially in the Japanese game industry, if there is an issue with one game internationally it becomes a big issue for everyone. Success of getting licenses is directly related to maintaining good relations with developers, which includes the careful handling of their characters, brands and IPs. It's easy to forget, but a game is the product of someone's heart and time, so they are very sensitive about these issues. Sekai Project, MangaGamer and JAST USA all work hard at keeping developers happy and protecting their IPs when distributing them outside of Japan, abet with slightly different strategies. I'd like to think we're working the hardest to get the optimum results for fans in our VN releases.
As always, thanks for your support.
I'm one of the staff on Shiny Days project. Just want to clarify what Peter said, none of us on the team have any moral objections to the content for Shiny. That was just a miscommunication between us. What we do face however is a large legal obstacle.
JAST USA is.. well.. a US company, but they sell and export their games worldwide. Censoring or cutting content out of a game is never an easy decision, but we had to do it to comply with various international laws. Just because it's a grey area in the US or legal elsewhere doesn't mean we can apply this standard across the board.
Back with School Days HQ, SP hosted a survey asking people what content is illegal in their respective countries. Underaged, beastiality and rape content were the top 3 in results. While I don't agree on cutting these out, we are obliged to in order to sell to these countries.
I understand why people would be angry about this censorship and their justification of not buying the game, but at the same time I don't want to play chicken with criminal code and be put on a registered sex offenders list.
@ Kanna
Well, I still won't buy it in that state... but, if Peter said that this whole reprint thing might become real, I will hold my breath for this uncensored version of the game.
Seeing as it seemingly is really just due to legal circumstances, the decision is understandable.
I was under the impression that the only major reason was due to staff members and translators' personal opinion clashing with the release of the game.
But seriously, it's not uncommon for such games to have either rape, or underaged characters (or underaged-looking, to be more precise) involved in naughty situations.
It's still questionable how the legal situation is. In Germany, fictional loli stuff is totally fine, as long as it doesn't resemble a realistic scenario.
Are the Kokoro scenes as well as the one from her friend, or whatever character got mentioned as well, ''realistic''?
Because, that's the main thing here, is the sex involved of realistic nature, or already that wacky that it wouldn't qualify as something interfering with CP law?
I didn't even know that Kokoro is actually underaged, but then again, I don't care, if it's just a drawing.
Oh well, I guess this was already a heated debate.
Now I feel sorta bad for Peter. :/
Though, I won't reconsider my decision about not buying it, as of now.
I mean, even though this potentially uncensored reprint version might become a thing, if we are lucky, I doubt the legal situation would have changed much, so, is something like that even an option, even in the future...?
I would love to know more about this; like I said, I will happily buy something from Jast/-List, but not butchered.
But now, I can see atleast that this seems to be simply a matter of legal interferencies, yet again.
Still wonder how Mangagamer got their loli games released though... they don't seem to be affected by such laws that severely.
Then again, it obviously depends on the title in question whether or not they can ''release something casually'', or will have to do a pile of paper work before a title can be released.
But Jast isn't Mangagamer, so... oh well, I guess I will just have to wait and hope for this reprint thing to happen in an uncensored state. :/
Thank you for that clarification. While I have made the decision to stay true to my own ideals and get an official downloadable version in Japanese (the advantages of knowing the language), I do understand that staff living in different locations with different laws can be a serious issue. And my decision only applies to that particular game, not all of JAST’s catalogue.
If I may ask 2 quick questions:
- In the case of similar projects in the future, is there a possibility of distributing staff over projects so they don’t have to work on content that is not in accordance to their local laws? Or is the company lacking enough employees for this? It may be an obvious answer. But to be honest, I don’t have a clue how big/small your company is. Or is it nog feasible for other reasons?
- Depending on the answer to the earlier question, what are your thoughts on creating 2 versions in the future. Kind of like the situation with steam, where all age versions exist. Where people can get a censored version if they live in a restricted country, or they can choose the uncensored version in case they live anywhere else.
I think I can relate to JAST USA's decision to remove Kokoro scenes. Legal issues are indeed very troublesome for customers in some countries and there is nothing much we can really do to change international laws to add back questionable content.
Although I am initially disappointed that the game would not have all the content intact, I can see why Peter is doing this. I am not that upset now that I realized it is only a few scenes that were removed and they are not central to the storyline.
I can understand the unhappiness in some fans and their reasons for not supporting the game but personally, I appreciate JAST USA's efforts in bringing over Shiny Days and I am glad it is at least released in English without mosaics.
So Shiny Days gets:
"The full game on two dual-layer DVDs (18 GB total install).
An original mousepad with new art by Junji Goto.
A gorgeous 48 page artbook with glossy art from the Days series games.
Illustration card and manual.
All we got for Starless was one dvd and "A gorgeous 62 page perfect-bound artbook with gorgeous art and sketchwork of the game."
Damn I'd say you Shiny Days fans are getting a good deal considering you only losing a little bit of content. :P
Hmm, I bought School Days, and wanted to do the same with this, but really not a fan of content removing. I can somehow deal with the mosaics, or drawing an extra pantsu but outright cutting out parts it's just a no-no.
Sorry that I can't support you this time around. In the future please don't even license a title if you know there would be problem with the content.
Censorship is never good, no matter how much of less of an impact it has.
Sure, it's pretty neat what comes in the limited edition, but it's a question of principle, to me, atleast.
It's understandable considering the circumstances, but it still doesn't make me purchase this title.
Besides, some user said that these few scenes actually take away from the experience and making some things unable to be grasped by the player.
If that is the case, well... hmm.
As mentioned before, it's understandable for avoiding legal trouble, but that doesn't mean that the customer has to approve of it.
Atleast I have still a bunch of other games that I can pay for from J-List... :/
It's a lot easier to work around these censorship issues with digital distribution, at least with the current state of the world. Physical items is a different beast altogether. Physical goods have to be shipped, and that means there will be random inspections upon importation, sometimes even during export. Something as innocent as potato chips may get confiscated at some borders due to various laws and trade agreements in place.
It's hard to deny that Kokoro is underage. First, she appears much younger than Kotonoha, and there's the fact that she's mentioned as Kotonoha's little sister. Even Setsuna is considered borderline with respects to some jurisdictions.
Again, I respect the decisions people here have made to not purchase the game, and I hope that you'll continue to support the industry in other ways.
@Minime For each of the various companies doing visual novels there is a very small core staff who work full-time, most of the project staff are contractors who do this as a side job because we love the genre. Visual novels, especially the lengthy ones, are really a labor of love and require people who are dedicated to it for months, even years! It's hard to cherry pick the staff based on geography.
Just want to know , If this problem was about legal issues, why Romanesque got uncensored release but Shinny days need to censored ?
Very likely it’s different contractors, with different laws applying to them.
"Censorship is never good, no matter how much of less of an impact it has.
Sure, it's pretty neat what comes in the limited edition, but it's a question of principle, to me, atleast."
Censorship isn't good and I've had a similar discussion on this subject with Starless.
Meanwhile in Japan they have all that mosaic. :P
Without the sales your unlikely to see anything with this content getting a future release in English and
you also have word on a fan restore patch which will return any lost content.
Which if it is a issue you can just wait for that before buying.
I would rather get a side patch work around to restore missing content, then JAST just to completely not licence a game. This could work particularly well with getting around Loli/Scat and other content in other releases, which they might have never picked up due to cutting content issues.
With Starless I will burn the fan patch on to a disc and add it into the box set. Not ideal but at least the option is available rather then no option or the game not getting any release.
I will wait out on Shiny Days to see how it plays out before buying.
@Murderous int
True indeed, the mosaics are also censorship. Though I do see it differently enough to distinguish. One is a blanket rule covering all types of possible content, while the other stigmatizes certain types of content over others
.
I think, at some point we all draw the line somewhere of what we consider as something we can (reluctantly perhaps) put ourselves behind and what not. And that happens to be where I usually draw it.
Well ok, maybe I’ll refrain from ordering a Japanese downloadable copy for now, and take a wait and see approach first for an “unofficial” patch or possible reprint in the future. I’ll need a night’s sleep to decide. Though I don’t mind paying twice for the same product if the latter happens eventually.
@ Peter Payne
"The Man" Google/Twitter/whoever will not let an adult product be marketed, and we have to do our advertising on 4chan.
I think instead of advertizing with 4chan you should consider advertizing with companies such as Project-H, Fakku, Rightstuf, and Kitty Media for your adult titles as I explained here. With 4chan you’re targeting a demographic that likes manga/anime but they’re not necessarily paying customers. Instead you should target paying customers who are already buying closely related goods; they’ll be much more receptive to your ad and will be more likely to buy from you than people who ignore your ads while browsing 4chan.
Starless will be the best looking nukige to have ever been released in the West and it would be a shame for it not to be your best selling eroge of all time. But if you can’t find a way to expose potential customers to its unique artwork its all for naught. Starless’ art work has instant appeal which would lend itself extremely well for a solid marketing campaign. And once the patch is out all the negativity surrounding the release should subside so it shouldn’t interfere with your marketing efforts.
I honestly believe we will never make any content changes to any game in the future, due to the resistance from everyone about Starless and Shiny Days. I can say that with 99.9% certainty. So hopefully this will be the last thread of this kind I’ll be participating in. So I do thank everyone for your comments and feedback.
If the way forward on risky titles is an implicitly guaranteed unofficial uncensored restoration patch as is indicated for Starless and Shiny Days I hope you don’t take the route described above. If there’s a way for fans to get the entire experience without putting you, your company and employees at risk then I’m all for it. I’d love to play all of Sei Shoujo’s games, not just the vanilla ones, uncensored and in English.
†
Jast you've lost all of my faith. Are saya no uta and little witch censored too and you just didn't tell us about it?
are both the Digital and Physical version butchered ?
I really wish that I could pick this game up but I just can't. One I don't care for school days or any of the characters and I doubt that would change with a new game. I could care little about the censorship itself if it were properly admitted and therein lies my concern. Yet again Jast has failed to properly inform its customer base that content is missing. From a business standpoint I completely understand why it's done but as a consumer I find this a tad unethical. You want to cut the game I completely understand it's a twitchy subject and I don't fault you for wanting to be careful...I can fault you for not mentioning the censorship on the Jlist page for the item.
I'd rather pick up raidy and seinarukana or even sumaga so hopefully we get more info on the latter two sooner rather than later. I would love to pre-order raidy and seinarukana at the same time. Nice to know raidy won't have anything cut hopefully Seinarukana will end up being the same (nothing cut/censored).
So not a huge deal for me since I had little interest in picking this title up anyway. I might grab eventually but not anytime soon.
Be more forthcoming about the information and outright tell the truth about the situations. I feel as if it probably had less to do with the employees and more to do with wanting to not tempt fate by potentially getting into legal trouble...which is a very valid concern. I would like to see in the future when a game is missing content that you mention it right away on the page to pre-order the products...we shouldn't have to discover it away from the main information on the title via forum, blog, etc...
To the people upset the scenes are missing I'm assuming the route still remains in tact and it was just the h-scenes that were cut. I used to be big on anti-censorship and while I still hate it with a passion I'm less disturbed by it than I used to be...society opinions on various topics continually changes I'm assuming if there were to be no legal ramifications from the content cut that it likely would not be difficult to add anything back in it. You have to remember while Jlist/Jast work in the United States it is not the only place the product is shipped to. A translator recently got in trouble with canada because of customs so it;'s likely people are a bit on edge because of that incident.
Do what you have to do just inform us better about these issues in proper methods in the future.