It is valid when the people translating them are subject to those laws, which it was in this case. Saya no Uta and Littlewitch likely had translators who weren't subject to the laws that are affecting this right now.
I highly doubt if that was the case that would mean they have enough translators that they don't have to use the same ones each project, which means they could have used different translators for shiny days.
Most of these laws operate on a vague offensiveness principle. The more offensive the content, the more likely it is to be deemed infringing. Imagine a scale of offensiveness as follows:
small-bodied loli < small-bodied loli with an immature personality < small-bodied loli with an immature personality that calls the protagonist "papa" < small-bodied loli with an immature personality who is brutually raped by "papa"
Littlewitch Romanesque is near the left side of that scale. Shiny Days is closer to the right. Saya no Uta is off in some grey zone because Saya isn't even human.
Whether or not Saya is human or not does not matter, we never see her actual form and the form we're presented with is that of a human girl.
I'd also say that Little witch is on the same level as Kokoro when it comes to loliness.
@Zah @Tototo
With both Saya no Uta and Littlewtich we released them uncut also because their setting and context of the sexual content made them less of a legal risk.
Dark_Shiki gets it.
The School Days series uses a realistic setting that is particularly problematic. Kokoro is indisputably a child. I haven't played Shiny Days, but I have played Cross Days, and one of the characters is an actual pedophile. He considers Kokoro one of his "flock". That sort of portrayal is... very problematic from the standpoint of obscenity law where the meter for legality is how much it pisses people off.
That's is utter bullshit, it doesn't matter what kind of portrayal the game gives them lawmakers only care about the fact that they're children doing sexual acts in the first place. If someone would get in trouble for Shiny days they would get in trouble for little witch and saya no uta.
You're assuming these laws are consistent with clear definitions of what a child is and what constitutes infringing content. They're not. That's how law *usually* works, but that's not how obscenity law works. It's based on community standards of what's socially acceptable. That means police, prosecutor, judge, and jury decide whether the content is illegal or not--and no one can clearly delineate before the fact where the line in the sand is between "safe" and "not safe". What's "safe" in front of one jury may be "not safe" in front of another. That's just how the system works.
Then Little witch's lolicon would without a doubt be on the same level as Shiny days because even if you don't state their ages within the story the two main girls are children.
There's no way you could go "But it's in a fantasy setting so it's not that bad". If we had serious child porn laws in the us saya no uta and little witch would not pass the test. So why that excuse works for shiny days but not either of those I don't understand.
It's very doubtful that any of those 3 works would be considered obscene in the US if the case actually went to court. The Miller Test is a pretty strong protection. Shiny Days is more likely to be problematic internationally. Check out my blog post on the matter.
Well, now that I understand better what was cut and the reasons why, not as bothered by this.
I understand why it just does not sit well with me, never has, Western releases are meant to make us embrace the Japanese style of gaming yet we always seem to get censored versions when it comes to certain material.
I might be the only person to say this but I would rather the game not get released at all in Western areas at all if it is going to have parts cut out.
What is getting censored is not the issue its more that I would rather read/play the game in full then have parts missing. Maybe this is due to being in Australia where for so many years and still ongoing many games were not brought over here or had an edited version release which is why I hate it so much I guess.
All up I am sitting on the fence on if I want to buy this and Starless, I like owning physical editions of the games and the limited edition for Shiny Days does look good but I know I will not install it unless from either backend ways or a fan restoration patch is made for both games.
Sorry not trying to have a go at JAST or Sekai Project (even if Sekai Project’s last few decisions have not sat well with me, I enjoy their work as a whole) just saying my thoughts is all and I do hope the sales go well but for me I will ponder it some more before clicking the “add to cart” button
(Takes deep breath) … Whew. This thread got pretty intense in a hurry. I feel residual stress just from reading it! I think both the opponents of this cut and its defenders have staked out their respective points well, and I can’t add anything to the conversation that wouldn’t be redundant. However, I do want to defend this Shiny Days release from a completely different light – look at what’s present, not just what’s missing.
This conversation has been all about what has been removed from Shiny Days, but I’d urge everyone to take a second to step back, whatever your opinion of the cut, and look at the product itself as a whole experience. At 18G and two discs, this is easily one of the largest releases JAST has ever done, if not the largest. It’s the original game, made better by the removal of all mosaics and (for English-speaking audiences) a professionally-translated English subtitle throughout. The sucker comes in a gorgeous artbox made to partner with the previous School Days HQ special edition release, plus a mousepad, artbook, illustration card… oh, and a free download sent on the day of release. We don’t even have to wait for this thing to ship. And the whole thing costs less than $50! I would challenge you to find any console game special-edition release selling for that price with comparable goodies and improvements to the Japanese original. (Crud, the Boob Wars “limited edition” sequel costs as much, and all you get there is a disc and an Amray case.)
What I’m getting at is that I feel like we’ve just been delivered a shiny new yacht, and all anyone is talking about is the fact that the passenger mirror got knocked off in shipping. Full disclosure: it is easy for me to say this because I personally will not miss the cut material, and I would even have avoided ordering it had that been left in place. (Bishoujo gaming is a hobby I enjoy, but not one worth my career, my personal safety, or my relatively good name in my community.) But even if you feel strongly the other way and feel personally cheated by the omission, I hope you’ll take a measured approach and still judge the game on its existing merits. Frankly, it’s pretty damned cool.
@jacksprat1 then these games are not for you especially if you go look into the radish games you will know that this whole mess up timeline of incest murder ect are what makes these games
also the
I personally will not miss the cut material, and I would even have avoided ordering it had that been left in place.
yea that's just leaves the incest and other fuck up shit Mr Clean
@ jacksprat1
I'm not buying a game for the extra goodies alone, in it's core, I'm buying a game to play it (and for collection purposes, in a limited/collector's edition, as these extra goodies are indeed awesome to have).
I believe you were trying to say in the core of your statement ''Well, atleast we get all this extra stuff that comes in the limited edition, don't forget that.'', but that's not the problem here.
People are getting whipped up about censorship, and alone censorship - that's the only reason here.
It's understandable that the consumer can't expect to make the publisher take the risk of getting sued, but the current situation with obscenity laws isn't anything new.
If it was known that certain content of a game might had to be cut, then don't even bother bringing this game to the west, in my opinion.
Even when being a lolicon myself (and quite frankly, I don't find Kokoro appealing at all as a character, to be honest), I'd rather have games with loli content released fully uncensored and light on the content that are confirmed to not make any problems or controversies arise over titles that in themselves are good-quality and even great, but could cause said controversy.
I'd rather play something that is deemed to be ''100% legit'' instead of something that could put the publisher as well as myself into danger, when deciding to purchase this.
I have to admit, I can understand this decision now, since I didn't know about Kokoro doesn't simply qualify as a loli, but is seemingly confirmed to be indeed underaged in Shiny Days, so the ''All characters are 18 years old, or older.'' argument can't be applied.
Even if it's just the passenger mirror, this certain part of the yacht won't be able to be fixed afterwards.
I guess I myself am simply a perfectionist and would prefer a game to be uncensored, in the best case scenario.
But that's just me - I want every single aspect of a game when purchasing it, or I don't want it at all.
To be even more honest, I might actually do buy Shiny Days now - not because of having reconsidered, but simply because I bought School Days HQ already in the collector's edition, and if I buy a series, I would prefer to have it in it's entirety (except for the Final Fantasy franchise; I'm not insane, after all).
But by far would I not buy it because of how this title has been handled, because that just sucks for the customer.
Simply for collection purposes...hopefully, titles that cause such controversies and come with legal risks won't be picked up in the future anymore, or are being handled by JAST in a way that staff and translators can work without facing legal consequences (or simply, organice staff according to their location to work on such titles without getting them in trouble).
I feel a bit like an ass saying this, but this is my opinion... sorry. :/
If we're talking about countries that actually have child porn laws then none of these titles would be safe no matter what you argue, the took someone to jail over that chibi sex position pic in canadian for christ sake.
''No matter what I argue'', in your opinion, which is, quite frankly, uneducated as shit.
Just because someone got put into jail doesn't mean that this was justified.
Furthermore, we all know how harsh Canada is with sexual explicit stuff; don't expect their laws being the same or to be ''superior'' as to others.
Pretty much every halfway modern country has child porn laws by now, and it is a good thing.
But fictional loli stuff has no business with actual child porn, because these are two separate things in its entirety, yet are falsely labelled as ''the same thing'', to the uneducated, broad mass of people.
Because, a real pedophile looks like this here.
Titles like Saya no Uta and Littlewitch Romanesque are perfectly legal; otherwise, I doubt Peter would have considered localizing them, and I doubt that I would own both of these games for showing off in my shelf now. :P
I have to admit, I was sceptical about Littlewitch Romanesque as well, but apparently, it's perfectly fine.
Who would you be to claim to know it better, any previous experiences in how the VN business works?
I doubt it. You wouldn't spout such garbage otherwise.
Listen child, I'm telling you that every country with child porn laws is the same as canada they little witch and saya no uta are gonna get you in trouble. I wouldn't even download those things in any country with a childporn law that includes 2d.
LittleWitch Romanesque is illegal in Australia, our child pornography laws apply to anime characters which allude to being underage. It doesn't matter if they're 14 or 300, if they're going to a middle school and there's sex then you can be done for child pornography in Australia.
I think things are similar in the UK and Canada.
Child pornography laws are different depending on which country you're a part of, that's why you need to research your own laws before you start importing this sort of shit. That was the crux of my blog post the other week, and Mangagamer constantly urges their customers to be aware of the laws within their own countries. Because at the end of the day "justice" and "what's right" are based on opinions, have nothing to do with the law, and have nothing to do with life. The law is created to bring about "order" within a country and differs depending on which country you go to.
Whether something is legal in America isn't a bench-test for whether it's legal in the rest of the World.