Poll: H-Game Girls--What's Your Age Range?

quote:
Originally posted by Darc:
I generally prefer slightly older looking characters, perhaps in their late teens/twenties. I find "mature" characters more attractive, as well as more engaging and complex but I do wish they wouldn't endow them all with blimp-sized breasts. It's almost as if the artists feel the need to inform us of her age by not-so subtlely enlarging her chest by about three times the size of the other characters (whose are usually already pretty huge, so you see the problem).

That said, Chain was heaven [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]


Indeed. Darc took the words right out of my mouth on this one, except that the occasional outrageous-busted chick doesn't really bother me as long as the character is rendered beautifully. [I've always thought breast shape was far more important than size whether big or small, and for me that goes for real life as well as art. About the only thing that turns me off are the extremes of comically enormous breasts on the one hand, or boy-flat nonexistent breasts on the other.]

Put me squarely in the Adult (18 - 35) category, though the occasional character +/- 5 years outside of that range is good for variety.

But bottom line for me: The best characters are those written (story-wise) and drawn so well that they seem timeless - where the character's age is only a dim, subconscious detail you never really think about.

- - - - -

On the other spirited debate on this thread, the attraction to underage girls is something I'm not likely to understand because I'm repulsed by the idea in a sexual context. At the same time it's important to acknowledge that everybody has the right to his own tastes (assuming of course we're talking about fiction and not real life,) and that those tastes aren't necessarily going to jibe with one's own.

What really annoys me is the fact that people who produce artwork depicting underage erotica, are treated under law the same as people who actually use real underage kids to produce underage porn. To my mind it is irrational and unjust for any kind of artwork, regardless of how perverse, to be treated as the legal equivalent of actually molesting children to produce porn in real life. It not only tramples on the freedom of expression, it marginalizes the seriousness of the actual crime of molesting children (which must occur as a matter of course in the process of producing kiddie-porn.) Ink on paper is not flesh and blood.

It's the old issue of the law's proper limit being the case of someone's actually harming someone else in a tangible way. A bishoujo forum may be a weird place to put a Jefferson quote, but...the man said: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."

I agree. Real life kiddie porn is evil because a kid actually has to be made to perform sexual acts in order for the photos to be taken. But if someone sits down at a drafting table and draws a picture of underaged sex with ink on paper, exactly who has been injured? Nobody. People concerned with the state of culture and with the problem of child molestation might argue that "society is being injured" or some such language, but that's a debate beside the point. Law is force, and unless someone has suffered tangible harm, the law should (must, in Jefferson's view,) butt out.

We clearly have a long way to go before our laws are pulled out of the muck of irrationality. If I can make a plug I'd advise concerned people to write their elected officials demanding that the no-brainer distinction between reality and artifice be finally recognized under law, and that the right of people to create whatever images or words or statues or whatever, be restored unconditionally.

But I'm soapboxing again - sorry.

[This message has been edited by ZaphodB.Goode (edited 01-11-2005).]

@Zaphod: Virtual child pornography is perfectly legal in the U.S. at the present time, according to a recent Supreme Court ruling. This includes “hentai,” as well as photo-realistic drawings or CG’s that did not require or depict an actual minor. The latter really creep me out, btw. There’s a time and a place for that sort of stuff, and an anime image board is not one of them.

quote:
Originally posted by The Unholy Avenger:
i dont know… maybe because 16 is the age that they shold get into sex? maybe because it’s a normal age for boys/girls to start landing their twisted minds?

Should? Normal? I’m actually of the opinion that the majority of 16-year-olds don’t have the maturity, rational judgement, or sense of accountability necessary for a responsible sexual relationship. One could probably even make such a case for the majority of sexually-active 18-year-olds.

But that’s besides the point…because we’re talking about fantasy, not reality. These are characters, not people, living in a fabricated world with its own rules and its own reality. In this make-believe world, crushes become undying love in a handful of encounters, breasts naturally grow to be larger than one’s head, and rape victims orgasm uncontrollably before the teasings of their tormentors. Compared to all of these, I don’t think an 18-year-old boy having a healthy, consensual relationship with a 13-year-old girl is quite so far-fetched. Gasp it almost seems kind of romantic! Ah, but I don’t know…thinking such things might be dangerous. It might even be wrong. Best to blindly repress such feelings and forget I ever had them…

quote:

Why do i see a difference? maybe because it’s not the same seeing a naked 13 year-old girl
than to see a 16 or 17 (let’s make it 18 to keep it in the ‘completely legal’ side) one?
i DO think there’s a tremendous differece between the 2 cases…

Well, of course it’s not the same. They’re two different pictures, aimed at two different interests. Just as nude pictures of a cat-girl, a girl with J-cup breasts leaking milk, and a girl with a penis are aimed at different interests. Does that make any of them objectively “better”? Does it make any of them less legitmate? Less right? More wrong? More sick? More deviant?

… yes, you can get arrested and do time even when you absolutely did not know. Usually going to end up with a month of community service and your name on the Child Molestor’s register, I think, but I heard about someone in the porn world who got thoroughly screwed because one of his actresses (who looked very old, had a child, and used a fake ID to get the job) turned out to be 14. Whoops.

Obviously you get in a lot more trouble for “accidentally produced kiddie porn” than for “accidentally inspired a teenager to run away to visit me”.

quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:

Well, of course it's not the same. They're two different pictures, aimed at two different interests. Just as nude pictures of a cat-girl, a girl with J-cup breasts leaking milk, and a girl with a penis are aimed at different interests. Does that make any of them objectively "better"? Does it make any of them less legitmate? Less right? More wrong? More sick? More deviant?

I never saw a little girl with J-cup breasts leaking milk.
I never saw a little girl with a pennis.
These are obviously things that are as common in the hentai scene as a loli char in a b-game(maybe a girl with a dick is not THAT normal...)

let me remind u that this discution is about loli characters... not Penis nor J-cups leaking milk. wich in those cases, they are always 'grown up' characters (maybe not that much mentaly mature, somethimes they are too stupid) wich are 18 or olders....

although J-cups and other extremes are not my stile, i do accept them a lot more than seeing a little child ready to have sex...

quote:
In this make-believe world, crushes become undying love in a handful of encounters, breasts naturally grow to be larger than one's head, and rape victims orgasm uncontrollably before the teasings of their tormentors. Compared to all of these, I don't think an 18-year-old boy having a healthy, consensual relationship with a 13-year-old girl is quite so far-fetched.

Just because one thing is awfully bad (the rape) that doesn't make the other one (nude childs) less wrong. i understand that they are not the same. but u cant compare each other.
What would u think if a murderer say that he isn't that much guilty because there is another serial killer who killed a lot more people and even raped some of them??
Just because one thing is bad, it doesn't make the other thing 'good'

quote:

Just because one thing is awfully bad (the rape) that doesn't make the other one (nude childs) less wrong. i understand that they are not the same. but u cant compare each other.

No, one thing being bad doesn't make another thing good. One thing *not being bad in the first place* does, though.

A naked child in and of itself is not 'bad'. Otherwise you'd have to arrest kids every night when they tried to change into their nightclothes. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

With real children, there's all sorts of confusing gray areas - there have been parents arrested for taking what they thought were funny family photos of their toddler splashing naked in the bath, because someone else didn't see it as innocent. And people have ALWAYS taken pictures of their (very small) kids naked - haven't teenagers throughout history been threatened with their parents showing their naked baby pictures to their dates?

With real people, out of context, it can be hard to tell if anything bad was intended or done or not. (Obviously if something dreadful is being DONE to a child in a photo, you can tell!)

With a drawing and no real person involved, clearly no harm was actually *done*. Does that necessarily mean it's good? No, but it means it's pretty hard to say that it's unequivocally wrong, either. Neither the picture *nor the content* (if it's just 'Kid, naked') necessarily imply harm.

Now, 'Kid, being raped by wild boars' contains content that depicts something harmful. It is not illegal to draw a picture of harm being done to someone, but it is of rather questionable taste. A lot of loli-sex looks really unpleasant and painful, and I find that upsetting.

The point is not 'X is bad, but Y is more bad, so X is okay!' The point is 'Is X really bad? X is not Y. Convince me of why X is bad.'

as for may club, let that be a lesson to you to never take someone’s identity online for granted! I could secretly be the Queen of ENgland! You’d never know!

quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
as for may club, let that be a lesson to you to never take someone's identity online for granted! I could secretly be the Queen of ENgland! You'd never know! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

true, that's why our good lord alowed us to have certain technological level that made WebCams pretty cheap. So, i started asking for a VideoChat when things start getting 'serious' (if i ever get serious with something [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img])


quote:
The point is not 'X is bad, but Y is more bad, so X is okay!' The point is 'Is X really bad? X is not Y. Convince me of why X is bad.'

because most of times, when there is a cg of a little girl, after that comes another cg of a blood-sprayer himen, a penis that seems to have torns on it (because there's is no freaking way that a girl can bleed so much except, maybe, if u hit a vein [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img])
i understand till the part where everybody says that it can be 'cute' seeing a girl naked (just CUTE), but wich part is cute in seeing a girl bleeding the hell out of herself and having sex with somebody way older (maybe he's not that old, but in that age, when kids start to develop their bodies, i DO think there is a big differece) than her?
i dont see anything cute in a couple having sex

quote:
Originally posted by papillon:
The point is not 'X is bad, but Y is more bad, so X is okay!' The point is 'Is X really bad? X is not Y. Convince me of why X is bad.'

Thank you. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img] What I think I sometimes am trying to get at though, is: 'We say X is bad, but Y is just as bad, and no one cares. Why does no one care? Because Y isn't bad at all. Y is okay. So why isn't X okay?'

In particular, people tend to automatically make moral judgments without actually stopping to consider if that judgment necessarily applies to the particular scenario. It's natural to do so, but it doesn't make it any more right. In essence, such thinking is a form of prejudice, with negative consequences just like other forms of prejudice, like racism. This prejudice is exactly what I'm trying to combat.

If, however, someone can prove that lolicon thoughts/tendencies are actually objective wrong...then that's another story. Of course, even then, there's the issue of 'is a thought crime really a crime?' I tend to think not. A pedophile who constantly thinks of raping little girls, but never actually does, and furthermore does not contribute to such behavior by looking at child porn...is not adversely affecting society. But that's a whole different can of worms, and completely beyond the scope of this discussion. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

quote:
Originally posted by The Unholy Avenger:
because most of times, when there is a cg of a little girl, after that comes another cg of a blood-sprayer himen, a penis that seems to have torns on it (because there's is no freaking way that a girl can bleed so much except, maybe, if u hit a vein )
i understand till the part where everybody says that it can be 'cute' seeing a girl naked (just CUTE), but wich part is cute in seeing a girl bleeding the hell out of herself

Did I ever say I considered such CG cute? Hmm...you throw around the phrase "most of the time" as if you've had considerable exposure to loli hentai. Is this true? Or is this just another broad generalization based on a very small sample size (i.e. what you've just happened to randomly come across)? I would avoid making such statements if the latter is true. If the former...then I have to wonder who the true lolicon is here. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

Fantasy or not, I personally don't enjoy anyone suffering. This is the reason that I'm completely put off by Jewel Knights. I hear that overall the game is quite witty and has a decent story to tell, but I can't get past the fact that you have to watch the entire cast of characters get raped, and by none other than the protagonist you're supposed to be identifying with. I even tried a full-featured demo once [ [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]], and I still couldn't motivate myself to go further as soon as I hit the first rape scene.

(Let's not even talk about Hitomi. Decent game, but I definitely had the wrong idea...)

quote:
but wich part is cute in seeing a girl...having sex with somebody way older (maybe he's not that old, but in that age, when kids start to develop their bodies, i DO think there is a big differece) than her?

I don't know...what's so cute about seeing a high school girl blush as she self-consciously takes off her clothes and exposes herself for her first lover? It's kind of similar, I guess, but...

quote:

i dont see anything cute in a couple having sex

...I kind of agree with you here. This is kind of hard to put into words without completely embarrassing myself. Let's see...sex is the culmination of love. I find the concept of love between a young girl and a slightly to moderately older guy romantic (others may find the reverse romantic: a relationship between a young guy and an older woman). Sex is the culmination of that love, the climax if you will. The story could end without that climax, but then it would feel as if something were missing. Many people play H-games exactly for this general reason, no?

quote:

I never saw a little girl with J-cup breasts leaking milk.
I never saw a little girl with a pennis.
These are obviously things that are as common in the hentai scene as a loli char in a b-game(maybe a girl with a dick is not THAT normal...)

let me remind u that this discution is about loli characters... not Penis nor J-cups leaking milk. wich in those cases, they are always 'grown up' characters (maybe not that much mentaly mature, somethimes they are too stupid) wich are 18 or olders....

although J-cups and other extremes are not my stile, i do accept them a lot more than seeing a little child ready to have sex...


You seem to be fixated on this as a black-and-white moral issue. I view this more as a difference in taste. If you're going to make these moral accusations, at least prove to me objectively why it's wrong that I might enjoy looking at a nude picture of a cute 15-year-old-looking anime girl (Chii from Chobits for example). Let's take it even further than that: what if I *gasp* find said picture erotic?

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 01-12-2005).]

quote:
Originally posted by Peter Gilis:
...but very older womans (40 or more) is strange ^^'.


My wife will be crushed to know that at 40something, she's considered a "very older woman". [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Transvestite: A man who dresses in womens' clothing, often attempting to look as much like a woman as possible. Please note, not all transvestites are homosexual or bisexual. Some are heterosexual men who like to look like a lady (For reasons which escape me, but if it makes 'em happy...).

Transexuals: the explanations have been good enough, so I'll only add this - they're generally divided into two groups, pre-op and post-op, with pre-op yet to have (if they ever do) the final operation, and post-op, obviously, having had that operation.

Hermaphrodite: This is a natural condition (in real life, not anime) where a person is born with male and female sexual organs. It is also seen in the animal kingdom.

In humans, it is rare, and there are different types. Today, via genetic testing, one can determine whether such a child is a boy XX chromosomes, girl, XY chromosomes. In these instances, the boy can sometimes father children, and the girl can sometimes give birth. When such a child is born today, typically corrective surgery is taken at the earliest possible stage to remove the "incorrect" organs. There is a third type, which has more ambiguous chromosomes, and often requires extensive testing to determine which sex, if it can ever be determined, is correct.

Needless to say, anime and H-Game hermaphrodites have little in common with reality.

As to which age is most appealing, for me it's 18-50.

Keep in mind that such polls where someone might say that they're attracted to a 12-year old are anonymous, so you know nothing of the respondent. On the one hand, if the repsondent is 50 years old, then there's a problem. OTOH, if the respondent is 13-years old, he's simply attracted to a girl in his own age group.

I prefer the mature women in anime for the same reason I prefer more mature women in real life: they're experienced, and generally know a lot more about sex and life than does an 18-year girl...not that there's anything wrong with 18-year old gals. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Now, the legal codes of various nations runs headlong into human history with regard to the age of consent.

For much of human history, girls were often married in their early and mid-teens. History is replete with European Queens who were 13-14 years old, sometimes even younger.

That was then, and this is now. Personally, I prefer the more mature women in H-Games, and anime, as I find that the seiyuu is generally sexier when portraying an older woman.

Different strokes for different folks, and obviously there's a significant loli-appeal in Japan, otherwise we wouldn't see such games.

Sex between a couple fulfilling their love via sex isn’t exactly cute.

But it can be sweet, which is often how it is presented in H-Games.

quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
You seem to be fixated on this as a black-and-white moral issue. I view this more as a difference in taste. If you're going to make these moral accusations, at least prove to me objectively why it's wrong that I might enjoy looking at a nude picture of a cute 15-year-old-looking anime girl (Chii from Chobits for example).

Although i dont like seeing little girls naked, i DO tolerate it, if i didnt, then i couldnt read MANY mangas, or see MANY animes (as u said, chobits is one example).

What i dont UNDERSTAND (see? i said UNDERSTAND, not 'I HATE' so dont tell me that i'm a twisted version of a racist [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]) is why does it have to be a sex scene? cant u just enjoy it looking at her 'dressed'? i think that it can be cute with the girl dressed, i dont see why u have to see the girl habing sex to see something cute...:s:s

quote:
sex is the culmination of love.

WRONG!! there's also sex without love... that can be seen not only in real life but in animes/mangas/games as well...

quote:
Sex is the culmination of that love, the climax if you will. The story could end without that climax, but then it would feel as if something were missing

i agree. The thing is that i dont think that a 13-year-old girl is ready to have sex, doesn't matter how much in love she and her couple are. at the age of 13, the 'Climax' from love at best case escenario would be a light kiss on the lips.

Now, you tell, you have a 13 year-old girl, she has a boyfriend, he's 18. What would you do if you find out that she's, with only 13 years, is having sex with a boy who is 18?
i wont believe u if u tell me that u will just say 'OHH! how cute!! my little girl is now a woman!!!'
in my case, i think that i'll chase the boy all over the globe with a knife and i will see him suffer while i that the sh** out of him for touching my little girl who is just 13... (i dont think i would allow the relationship to begin with if the guy is 18 and she is 13)

quote:
Originally posted by general_hentai:
Keep in mind that such polls where someone might say that they're attracted to a 12-year old are anonymous, so you know nothing of the respondent. On the one hand, if the repsondent is 50 years old, then there's a problem. OTOH, if the respondent is 13-years old, he's simply attracted to a girl in his own age group.

I think you're still losing sight of the fact that this is anime, as in fantasy we're talking about. Nonetheless, let me pose you this question: do you honestly think that a 50-year-old man will find someone (a real person) in his age group more attractive than, say, an 18-year-old girl? Or are old people not supposed to have sexual desires? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW, the poll was created as a topic in an H-manga forum. Thus, at least theoretically, all respondents were 18 or over. The site is also fairly well moderated (considering it's a discussion board for a site that has set aside forums specifically for distributing pirated software).

quote:
Originally posted by general_hentai:
I prefer the mature women in anime for the same reason I prefer more mature women in real life: they're experienced, and generally know a lot more about sex and life than does an 18-year girl...not that there's anything wrong with 18-year old gals. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

Finally!!! somebody who share my same thoughts!!!
Better quality than quantity [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
Older womans (20-25, i'm 19, so 25 is older enough for me) are really great, they know more than you, and you always leave with a new experience in your 'hands'... (At least this is my (maybe childish) way to see things)

quote:
Originally posted by The Unholy Avenger:
What i dont UNDERSTAND (see? i said UNDERSTAND, not 'I HATE' so dont tell me that i'm a twisted version of a racist )

I didn't say that... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

Seriously, earlier you said that toddler-con is sick. That implies a moral judgment to me. Since then, you've implied through your various arguments that you think lolicon is sick as well. Thus, as I see it, you've made a moral judgment that lolicon is wrong. You may tolerate its existence, but you still think it's wrong (feel free to correct me if you feel I've misinterpreted your attitude on the matter). If a moral judgment, any moral judgment, is automatic, and not well-considered with rational arguments in its support, then it can result in prejudice. The vast majority of Americans go through life, making moral judgments and stigmatizing others without a second thought as to whether their judgments are actually justified. But prejudice is still prejudice: an irrational and often deeply-ingrained disdain towards a group of people and/or their beliefs.

Don't get me wrong; people are perfectly entitled to their opinion, prejudiced or not. As long as one doesn't go publicly defaming others and declaring that X hobby is a sin or something, then normally I'm inclined to turn the other cheek. Prejudice is very much a part of human nature, and no one can avoid it completely. The best we can do is try to reign in the impulse. In many cases, the impulse will always be there, though.

The only reason that I even continue this debate is that I think that, as b-gamers, we've all experienced prejudice against our genre in some form or another. It's a shame to then turn around and push that prejudice onto a potentially innocent sub-group. I think we can do better than that. We should be able to do better than that.

quote:
What i dont UNDERSTAND...is why does it have to be a sex scene? cant u just enjoy it looking at her 'dressed'? i think that it can be cute with the girl dressed, i dont see why u have to see the girl habing sex to see something cute...:s:s

Sure, I can enjoy looking at her dressed, and that can very cute. And like I said before, I don't really think the same girl having sex is necessarily 'cute'. As general_hentai put it, the buzz word there is probably "sweet." Not that it can't be erotic too...after all, that's what H-material is all about. But I don't expect you to understand that feeling, because you're obviously not a lolicon. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

The best way I can put it is this: don't be so quick to judge. You don't seem to have this negative feeling towards the oppai fetish (i.e. the 'milk coming out of the huge breasts' example I gave earlier). Why is that? One could argue that such an image contributes to the stereotype of a woman's body as a sex symbol, which would certainly upset a number of women out there. Actually, you could make that argument for anything from porn to fashion magazines...hmm. Well the argument still stands. Personally, I find the fetish disgusting, but I wouldn't call it sick. I'm not making a moral judgment about it, you see?

quote:
WRONG!! there's also sex without love... that can be seen not only in real life but in animes/mangas/games as well...

Well, I'm not disputing that. Let me rephrase my original statement: according to my personal beliefs, sex is the culmination of romantic love. I believe that many other people also hold this ideal dear.

quote:

i agree. The thing is that i dont think that a 13-year-old girl is ready to have sex, doesn't matter how much in love she and her couple are. at the age of 13, the 'Climax' from love at best case escenario would be a light kiss on the lips.

Now, you tell, you have a 13 year-old girl, she has a boyfriend, he's 18. What would you do if you find out that she's, with only 13 years, is having sex with a boy who is 18?
i wont believe u if u tell me that u will just say 'OHH! how cute!! my little girl is now a woman!!!'
in my case, i think that i'll chase the boy all over the globe with a knife and i will see him suffer while i that the sh** out of him for touching my little girl who is just 13... (i dont think i would allow the relationship to begin with if the guy is 18 and she is 13)


Again, you mix-up fantasy and reality. Please keep them separate. In the world of fantasy, a 13-year-old girl can be ready to have sex, and she won't even be adversely-affected psychologically. She can also grow wings and fly into the air without notice. That's why it's fantasy.

Even then, I'm overjustifying. Even if I were into lolicon rape (*cough* Jewel Knights *cough*), that should still be okay. It's fantasy. No one gets hurt. As long as I don't start looking at kiddy porn and raping little girls, then society isn't any the worse due to my admittedly odd taste, is it?

I'm curious, btw...do you have the same negative attitude towards rape games? If you don't, I'll be forced to call you a hypocrite. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

BTW, I seem to be slipping into the trap of considering fictional ages as absolute. Let me extract myself from it. In general, you can't necessarily attribute an age to something that is ageless, like a character...especially if no age is offered in the story. You can take your best guess (the whole basis for this poll), but it's foolhardy to say "well that anime girl looks like she's 13," consult your handy book of real-life morals, and then say "it must be wrong to even consider her sexually." Real age is objective; character age is subjective. Not that I think lolicon needs "loopholes" like this because depicting an "actual" 15-year-old anime character sexually is "wrong" or anything. We are still in the realm of fantasy...

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 01-12-2005).]

quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
I'm curious, btw...do you have the same negative attitude towards rape games? If you don't, I'll be forced to call you a hypocrite. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]

i dont like extremes, i enjoy 'normal' sex.(Blowjobs are normal, vaginal sex, is normal, even anal sex is normal. now... 25 dildos on each hole is NOT normal at all, the 4° SWAT squadron raping an office-woman, absolutelly not normal)
i whink i have stated this before in many other posts, but i dont like rape stuff, i consider that sex is something that both persons must enjoy. (yeah, u can tell me that some people like to be treated rough, but there are really few of them). Althrough i said that it's possible to have sex without love, i think that making love (which is not the same as having sex) IS a way to show a special felling towards somebody...


Dark_Shiki: How can we not take in consideration our own Moral? after all, everything in this life is ruled by moral. in our present world, little girls having sex is wrong, fantasy or not, i admit that i lack flexibility to accept those kind of thing from other people but you cant expect any human being to take aside his/her own moral in any kind of discution, no matter how Objetive u want to be, there is still that 'Default Moral'(look! i invented a new word) that is stablished on the society we live in (Doesn't matter if u are with or against those 'rules' u are still taking them in consideration).

We cant leave our moral aside because it affect the way we see things Objetively. It's a factor, and as one, it has to be taken into consideration in every disscution, and also, because i'm able to take my own moral into consideration, i know that not everybody thing/say/do the same way i would and that's why i try to tolerate them (altrough i dont need to like or accept them...)


BTW: In any game that has a *rape* cg or something like that, i just skip the text and forward to when the rape ends (u can already imagine my dislike for games like Virgin Roasted [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] or Hitomi -i assume Hitomi has rape scenes i never played it nor i will-)
i dont say that they have a bad plot, but rape and those kind of things are not my style, maybe that's why i preffer light games like kango, where there is 100% love involved

quote:
Originally posted by The Unholy Avenger:
Dark_Shiki: How can we not take in consideration our own Moral? after all, everything in this life is ruled by moral. in our present world, little girls having sex is wrong, fantasy or not, i admit that i lack flexibility to accept those kind of thing from other people but you cant expect any human being to take aside his/her own moral in any kind of discution, no matter how Objetive u want to be, there is still that 'Default Moral'(look! i invented a new word) that is stablished on the society we live in (Doesn't matter if u are with or against those 'rules' u are still taking them in consideration).

We cant leave our moral aside because it affect the way we see things Objetively. It's a factor, and as one, it has to be taken into consideration in every disscution, and also, because i'm able to take my own moral into consideration, i know that not everybody thing/say/do the same way i would and that's why i try to tolerate them (altrough i dont need to like or accept them...)


I'm not saying that morals should not be considered, or put aside. Let me put it like this: It's fine to use a set a morals to define for yourself what you should and shouldn't do. Where people cross the line, IMO, is when they inevitably start using these morals to judge other people, who don't necessarily share this same set of morals (and often for completely valid reasons of their own). Throughout this discussion, I've defined for you a rational argument in support of my interest (perhaps you could call it a fetish) in lolicon. You don't have to agree with me, and you don't have to understand why I like it, but you should understand that my reasons for liking it are potentially just as valid as your reasons for not liking it. Don't judge me. Doing so is presumptuous and insulting to me as a person. You don't have the right to decide what is right for me, as long as I'm not causing harm to society. Apply your morals to yourself all you want, but don't think they allow you to raise yourself above me.

It's only my personal opinion, but I think morals cloud objectivity. People adopt them at an early age, often borrowing them from other people, and blanket apply them to every situation without properly considering the differences among individual situations. They are, in essence, a mental shortcut to making decisions without committing to rigorous thought. And that's fine...sometimes. Sometimes we need to make quick decisions, or we don't have the time and resources to properly consider all the information before us. Overused, they cloud our vision and cause intolerance. Often they are deeply-ingrained in us, leading to inflexibility and an inability to consider an issue from perspectives other than our own. That's why I believe people should recognize the benefits and pitfalls of moral systems, and learn to not be so heavily dependent on them.

And that concludes my lecture on moralistic philosophy. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 01-13-2005).]

quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
That's why I believe people should recognize the benefits and pitfalls of moral systems, and learn to not be so heavily dependent on them.

That's another thing... althrough it's sad to say this, most people is considered Mass because they have a one-way thinking (maybe, even i am in that mass, i dont know, maybe i'll never know) and as long as this continues, then that kind of thinking is kind of.... utopic. Dont get me wrong, i agree with you, and it would be great if everybody could put themselves in another person shoes and understand their own motives, what i'm saying is that in our actual state, conflicts are a thing about Magnitudes
You don't agree with something other said, you fight with him
A country doesn't like the ideology that has another country, then they have war...
Its a sad way of seeing things, but it's also objective.
Without going any more away from the topic, what i'm trying to say is that the idea you have is kind of utopic, if people can see things from different points of views, then stupid things like wars wouldn't even exist [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
Me? I never took your likings as offensive to me, if i said something that made you angry or make you understand something like that, i'm sorry, i'm not that kind of person.
(I'm great! i rulz! [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] let me be egocentric for a while)

quote:
And that concludes my lecture on moralistic philosophy. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

yeah, mine concludes here too....

Have you noticed how twisted this topic got?
It started with a poll. I said i didn't like toddler...bla...bla...bla
Somewhere in the road, it became Loli... bla...bla...bla
and once again, somewhere in the road, it became a moralistic war.... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/confused.gif[/img] [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/confused.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by The Unholy Avenger (edited 01-13-2005).]

I said it earlier, and I’ll say it again: Don’t try to apply morals to computer games, or any clearly fictional media. You’ll only end up being a hypocrite.

Example: Yesterday, I was playing Space Empires IV, it’s an old strategy game. Over the course of a few hours, I probably blew up about 30-40 enemy colony ships, each carrying a maximum of 34 million colonists. So basically, in those few hours, I killed 1.3 billion people (and that’s low for a session of SE IV). Can anyone here tell me that what I did was hideously more inhuman and cruel than having sex with a minor-looking character in an ero-game (even consensual)? Which do you think most people react to?

If you’re saying that killing 1.3 billion fictional people was less wrong than than sleeping with the fictional girl just because the 1.3 billion people were a number on the screen (as opposed to displayed visually), then you’re a hypocrite. Because you’re advocating a “it’s ok as long as I don’t have to see it up close” statement.

Edit
Minor clarification: Being more disturbed about the sex is okay, as it’s more realistic and probably affects your feelings more (as it’s supposed to). But saying that fictional sex is actually morally worse than fictional genocide just because it’s more realistic, that’s hypocricy.

[This message has been edited by AG3 (edited 01-13-2005).]

quote:
Originally posted by The Unholy Avenger:
How can we not take in consideration our own Moral? after all, everything in this life is ruled by moral. in our present world, little girls having sex is wrong, fantasy or not, i admit that i lack flexibility to accept those kind of thing from other people but you cant expect any human being to take aside his/her own moral in any kind of discution, no matter how Objetive u want to be, there is still that 'Default Moral'(look! i invented a new word) that is stablished on the society we live in (Doesn't matter if u are with or against those 'rules' u are still taking them in consideration).

This isn't a good counter to Dark_Shiki's argument. He is already well aware of the "default" (i.e. Victorian) morality that is the basis of western culture. Being objective and using reason to figure out what is right or wrong in a given situation is not an easy thing to do, but it's not impossible. A college level morality class is sure to offer you many alternative ways to look at any situation.

As for "killing in games is okay" but "sex with minors in games is bad," we seem to have an problem. Everyone understands this problem in his or her own mind, but cannot justify it without being hypocritical. The big problem here is that anime erotic anime is greatly misunderstood in the western world. People know that playing Grand Theft Auto will not turn you into a killer. As disturbing as its content may be, it's well known that people without any violent tendencies can enjoy playing such a game. You can say that in fiction, it's a thrill. Now what we never see is that logic being applied to lolicon games. Most people who play erotic games do enjoy the erotic content, just as people who play violent games enjoy the violent content. Why is it that everyone seems to assume that someone who enjoys lolicon games or anime is a person who is a real life pedophile? This instant assumption is always at the basis of the declaration that lolicon items are bad. It happens so fast in people's minds that many may not even realize it, despite the obvious parallelism to mainstream games.

[This message has been edited by bishounen_blue (edited 01-13-2005).]

quote:

People know that playing Grand Theft Auto will not turn you into a killer.

Not everybody knows or believes that. Plenty of Concerned Parents, etc, think otherwise. MANY people, including scientists, suspect there may be some link between watching/playing lots of violent stuff and a higher incidence of violence - nothing as clear-cut as "playing this game will make a normal child kill someone" but more along the lines of "playing this violent game could encourage a potentially-violent child to become ACTUALLY violent".

I don't think that's a good enough reason to completely ban something, but I reserve my right to be suspicious of you if you play lots of murder games.

And personally, I find kill-based games just as distressing as I do realistic-rape games... where the actual level of distress depends on how realistic it is. So rape by tentacle monster, which is very obviously not real, is not that disturbing. Similarly, death by SPACE LASERS is pretty far from real and isn't as upsetting. But I don't want to see anything that reminds me too much of a real rape, and I don't want to play games that are about shooting real-looking people in the head.

Remember, 'slightly suspicious' does not mean that I am accusing you of actually having done anything wrong or want you thrown in jail or stoned to death or anything.