First off you should read more about Amazon’s involvement in this mess. They weren’t listing it - it was one of those “reselling customer” things they have (that quasi-Ebay deal they run). The company has NO OFFICIAL CONNECTION to this… they just were the site that hosted the listing.
***EDIT: beaten by papillon ***
Secondly the kind of accusation you’re making, insinuates that sites such as DLSite, [url=http://www.erogeshop.com]Eroge Shop[/url] or [url=http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/game]Hobby Search[/url] should be at fault. They supply eroge - including rape - to the West. In that case, you mean to say eroge should only be sold in Japan? Foreign access bans shouldn’t bother you then.
Third, while I agree money has a lot to do with politics, it is not the end all be all to it. Look up the Civil Rights movement, which involved the lower and middle classes, as well as word of mouth. Being rich helps, but a rich man only has ONE vote… same number as a poor man.
If you sell illegal or counterfeit things on eBay, it’s their duty to take it down. So yes, if they have a policy of not selling adult items in Amazon UK and they let this user sell it, it’s their fault! I’m not saying Equality Now is not at fault, but the first thing that sparked this is Amazon. Of course the Japanese politicians are also part of the problem. They are doing this to try to win votes and please EN. But one company that isn’t at fault is Illusion. Rapelay has been made 3 years ago, and Illusion didn’t export it or promote it outside of Japan, Illusion is at no fault at all!
Edit: Martin Luther King was a well educated and charismatic leader, the success of the Civil Rights movement should be considered as an exception rather than the norm. While rich people only have one vote, they can use media to influence thousands and even millions of people to vote their way. If you look at most of the Presidential elections in the US (in recent times), the side that spent more on campaigning wins. Money = votes = power. Simple as that.
I never said they planned this. I only said they are the first party that’s responsible for this mess. If you disagree that’s fine. Like I said in my previous post, it doesn’t matter. It’s not the reason we are losing this censorship war. The reason is money.
LOL… we’re not losing the war due to money. Playboy and Hustler are multi-million dollar companies that fight feminists with MILLIONS of dollars each year. We’re losing it because of popular opinion is AGAINST pornography, pro-porn communities are so disorganized, and people are attack/accusing the wrong groups.
WHEN THEY NOTICE IT. WHEN SOMEONE REPORTS IT TO THEM. Just like Amazon did.
They DO sell porn on Amazon. Including Amazon UK. You want links?
The ‘first thing’ that sparked this was the existence of the eroge industry, the creation of the game, the selling of the game to a westerner, the westerner trying to resell it… First cause is a complex thing! And Amazon didn’t DO anything. The approval of the item was automatic. They had no idea.
It’s extremely unlikely that Japanese politicians actually care about pleasing some tiny little group of complainers in a foreign country - and pleasing such a group wouldn’t win them any votes, either. It’s not that they want EN to love them, it’s more likely that they fear this represents the international opinion of Japan being a bunch of perverts who live to molest schoolgirls. And isn’t that true?
You said it right there, “Playboy and Hustler are multi-million dollar companies that fight feminists with MILLIONS of dollars each year.” That’s why they are still around. If the eroge industry have millions of dollars to fight this, they wouldn’t have been censored.
I honestly didn’t know Amazon sells porn. But still, It’s Amazon’s responsibility to check what’s listed on their site! The eroge industry has existed in Japan for a long time, THIS is the first international incident that I can remember (been playing eroge for since Nocturnal Illusion, not too sure when that was made though). So yes, Amazon listing it for sale IS the first thing that sparked this incident. The Japanese politicians want more votes, they try to please EN to they can say (lie) to their voters and say “look we improved Japan’s image.”
Oh really? Then explain how the homosexual movement devotes millions of dollars from donations, in getting total true equality around the world, but are failing to achieve it after DECADES of fighting? Or how about the millions spent in fighting illegal Japanese whaling? Or how about the [u]BILLIONS[/u] spent in stopping arms proliferation throughout the globe? Or the fact that we are losing - that’s right LOSING - our own porn wars in the West, despite the money being poured against it.
Don’t you see how your money argument is a fallacy?
Equality Now isn’t even rich… I bet the eroge industry in Japan has a thousand times more money than Equality Now. I bet at most, the Equality Now movement only spent a few hundred dollars in postage stamps and envelopes.
It is because there are more rich homosexuals now that their movement gained momentum. How much do you think one of those gay pride parade cost? Japanese whaling is simple, the environmental groups aren’t focusing on it, have you seen an anti-whaling ad in the paper, on the radio, or on tv? I haven’t. Anti-arms polifertion, you’re kidding right? How rich are the weapon companies? Lockhead Martin alone is a multi-BILLION dollar company. They easily out spend whatever anti-arms poliferation group spends. Our own porn wars, how are we losing? There haven’t been any further restriction on live action porn.
There are always exceptions to the rule, but in vast majority of cases when it comes to politics, the side with more money wins.
No it’s not. In fact, the responsibility you blame on Amazon, is EXACTLY the same blame anti-porn movements have forced on the porn industry. It has not only been proven wrong - legally and morally - but UNCONSTITUTIONAL by the US Supreme Court (give me a moment to find the case docket).
Dude… I’m as angry as you are about all these happenings, but please take a step back and long breath. We’re all on the same side here, and lashing out in anger at neutral parties is NOT going to help our cause. Nor will lamenting that we’re not rich. We need to organize and get our priorities straight.
Honestly Amazon would be on our side, as they would LOVE to sell eroge in the West. It means more money for them. They’d probably DONATE to anti-censorship cause, if it seemed realistic and possible. Don’t make an enemy out of someone who isn’t even an enemy.
I’m not even going to touch that one. :roll:
In most states? Parade permit is around $25. Those floats and costumes? Out of pocket expenses from the participants, but probably only at most, a few hundred dollars each. Each person probably spends a thousand or two dollars at most, for food and hotel expenses, plus round trip plane ticket or gas.
ALL OF THIS OUT OF POCKET!!! (and mostly middle class)
Media coverage doesn’t cost a parade anything. News goes where there’s ratings. Gay Pride Parade in a major city, automatically gets coverage, because people want to watch/bitch/support it.
Again… OMG… Look up who contributes the MOST to anti-arms proliferation. Yup. The American [b]military-industrial complex[/b]. And there’s a reason for that, but you probably have no idea why, and it will take an entirely new topic to explain. But now you know, and can check for yourself.
I will give you hint though: Lockheed Martin would NOT like to see news reports that American soldiers lost a battle, because terrorists had their hands on Lockheed Martin body armor, night vision goggles, or weaponry. Weapon companies aren’t exactly moral, but they do have a strange code of honor. And the most proliferated weapons are the AK-47, RPG-7, MiG-21, and T-72 (or reverse engineered knock offs): all of them obsolete Soviet gear.
It might only cost you $25, but the organization, the promotion of the parade, that’s definitely more than only a few hundred. The gay (or lesbian) celebrity’s endorsement and airtime, those things cost money.
Compare whaling to global warming, which do you think the environmentalists are focusing on. The Aliance for Climate Change spends more than $100 million dollars a year (link) promoting global warming. That’s just one group. That’s why we see laws getting changed to reduced car emissions but not any laws on restricting whaling.
The American government sells weapons to it’s allies, how is that anti-proliferation.
Back to your first point, we ARE on the same side, we want to see the eroge industry preserved. But I just don’t agree that Amazon is on our side. And I am angry about the ban, or maybe I’m angry about how powerless (I’m broke) I am to do anything to help. I did the online petitions, but I know they are useless. I guess preserving the game we already have is all we can do. T_T
No it doesn’t. I could organize a gay parade in New York City with a few friends. I know, because I’ve seen it done. You get celebrity help by WRITING THEM and telling them you’re going to host a big parade with proof by including a copy of the permit and signatures of participants. Now it’s not as easy as it sounds, and it takes some work, but it won’t cost more than a few thousand dollars at most to be the central organizer of a parade when most everyone is a volunteer for the effort (and that’s mostly for rent and basic living expenses).
It’s a loss of man hours and personal income (because you have to take time off work). Not a factor of being rich. Look up how much it costs to support a civil rights parade, before making an assumption that it’s too expensive for everyday people. It’s a matter of dedication: not tons of money.
Wrong again. Check to see how many laws on restricting whaling exist, and how many nations abide by them. Now compare that to how many laws exist on restricting air pollution, and how many nations abide by them. Compare this to the overall effectiveness of anti-whiling, against the effectiveness of anti-air pollution.
I’ve got news for you: anti-whaling is winning. Japan, Iceland, and Norway are practically the last ones left. Air pollution? You must be ignoring China, India, 90% of the African continent, the entire Middle East, Mexico, and the United States (Obama isn’t touching it with a 10 feet pole, and America is the #2 producer with ideas for clean coal… an oxymoron if there ever was one).
You’re just quoting sites for statistics, not actual successes, otherwise you’d know that.
It is proliferation - but that does nothing to support your position. The US spends more money to PREVENT proliferation to nations it doesn’t like ¬ñ and even gets violent over it ¬ñ but has had almost zero effect. Thus NK having nukes and Iran just around the corner. You’re poisoning the well.
Organizing events costs a lot more than you think. I don’t have any personal experience, but I remember the guest speaker in my marketing class (who is doing marketing for a local hotel), a simple promotion event for their theater (for the Superman Returns movie) can cost a million dollar. He bragged about how he got Pepsi and Albertsons to share the cost so they only paid $250k. But the entire promotion costed over $1 million iirc. So yea, these parades, if it’s a city wide event I would image it can easily go into the million dollar zone.
On all the topics, I’m not saying the anti groups don’t spend money to do it, but where which ever side spend the MOST money, it’s the most effective. They are not spending nearly as much money in China and India to lobby the politicians to impose stricter emission standards, so the polution is high in those countries. But if you look at US and EU, the emission standards are very strict. In UK cars are road taxed by how much CO2 they emmit. As for anti-whaling being more effective, let’s see why are Japan, Iceland and Norway are still not abiding these treaties, because they hare a big whaling industry. Let’s bring this back to eroge. If the entire eroge industry is completely shut down, the Japanese economy wouldn’t even notice it. But if you shut down the whaling industry, the effect may be noticeable. Again, it’s all down to money.
Look, I don’t mean to sound like a noob that’s trolling this forum, I originally posted because I want to see what can we do to help. But now that the EOCS rules are set, and the CSA is going to announce their rules soon. There’s nothing left we can do. If you think Amazon is on your side, fine, buy from them. If you think money doesn’t matter in politics, try writing to the Japanese politicians. But I won’t be doing either one. It’s just a difference in opinion.
That because it’s a commercial event. I doubt people volunteered to work for free, in supporting it. Those are NOT the same standards or costs as a civil parade. In fact it’s the city that pays more (for fire, police, sanitation, etc) - not the participants. It does NOT take a million dollars to organize a large parade. It would be nice to have millions of dollars, but not required whatsoever.
It cost an entire city less than $80K to host a major parade. Most of that was overtime for the cops (and civil rights parades don’t pay for the cops). The actual material expenses were $20K (and would have been lower if it was volunteer work). Whomever told you it takes millions, doesn’t know how to host a parade. Hell… I’ll do it for him and take home most of the cash for myself.
They don’t spend more. China and India spend next to NOTHING to defend global air pollution. They just ignore them. Just how Japan ignores anti-whaling.
As proof find something, ANYTHING, that proves they spend more. You won’t. They know it’s wrong. They just don’t give a damn.
And despite our emission controls (which are totally lax compared to Europe and Japan), the US is the second greatest air polluter in the world. China is #1. India is on it’s way to unseat us.
The Japanese porn industry makes more money than Japanese whaling. In 2007 Japan killed 1000 whales. Supposedly one whale makes 1 million dollars in profit according to the [b]International Whaling Commission[/b]. That means whaling earns about 1 billion dollars in profit. Japanese porn industry, is worth more than $1 billion dollars.
According to Australia, whale watching generates TWO BILLION DOLLARS in tourist revenue. Furthermore the Japanese government SPENDS MONEY to keep the illegal whaling industry from going out of business. That is to say, if Japan suspended illegal whaling, they’d be making [u]MORE MONEY[/u].
It’s not about money. It’s about the internal working of Japan politics, and the appalling apathy (until recently) exhibited by the pro-pornography community.
And there ya go. That’s exactly why we lost. Doing nothing, will mean nothing will be done to change it. Defeatism doesn’t just apply to war.
Please don’t think I’m seeing you that way. I’m not. But writing and activism is what we need to do: both foreign and domestic. I’m not upset or angry at you - we’re all on the same side after all. I’m just trying to point out we can still do things to turn everything around. It won’t happen overnight and could take years, but it can happen.
It sucks. It’s time consuming. It’s boring. But it works: because that’s exactly how they got eroge taken away from us.
The reason why people overseas even knew about Noda Seiko (who is the perfect person for their campaign), is because she gives speeches overseas arguing against Japan’s porn industry.
Also ask yourself this: if Amazon went out of business, would that hurt or help the eroge market? I can tell you that it will HURT the market… because Amazon has very robust eroge support in Japan. They’re one of the major online sources for it over there. Attacking Amazon is shooting ourselves in the foot. There’s far more important enemies to face, without negative effects to ourselves. Furthermore if we could international customs bans against porn removed, Amazon could become one of the largest sellers of eroge, since they have the infrastructure to advertise and sell it worldwide.
Equality Now got a great result (from their viewpoint, of course :roll: ) simply by sending thousands of letters and emails -not necessarily from thousands of irate people- to the Japanese government.
As Minori suggested, I think that compile this form…
This. Specifically, nonsensical Puritan / Elizabethan ideals engrained in society, widely accepted as truth by virtue of tradition rather than rational analysis. This finger pointing at neutral bodies just ignores the real problem and accomplishes nothing except raising tempers.
Yea… I agree… all this debating isn’t doing anything. Since I’m probably the guiltiest person for so many text wall posts, I suppose I should be the one who lists things we [u]CAN[/u] do. We’re all smart people: let’s get our heads together.
I know some of you strongly believe sending letters is a waste of time, but just look at it this way: Equality Now won their victory, simply through sending letters. Fixing the problem won’t be as easy, but it will help - and our Japanese eroge brethren will feel better if they know we’re seriously campaigning to save eroge with them, rather than pointing fingers back at us. It only costs a few dollars, we have more to gain than lose, and if it doesn’t work… oh well we tried. If it does: Fuck Yea!!!
Send a fax if you don’t wanna waste stamps or envelopes. Send an email if you’re REALLY against something physical. Just please think about send something.
In any event: feel free to add more. Once we get a good list of things we can do and generally approve of, maybe we can get the info sticky on the forum. I’ll see about writing some example letters this weekend, for the really lazy people who don’t wanna brainstorm an original letter.
Equality Now is insignificant to us. Don’t bother with them. No hate mail. No death threats. None. Nada. Zilch.
Who: Amazon Japan Why: EN sent a letter campaign to Amazon Japan, pressing for them to terminate the sale of rape eroge. Amazon Japan is a major online seller of eroge in Japan. If they stopped selling eroge in Japan, it’s a blow against the market, not a victory.
Who: Taro Aso Why: He’s the Prime Minster of Japan. Said to be an otaku. If that’s true he should sympathize with us. If not: he’s still the Prime Minster of Japan. Plus EN sent a letter campaign to him.
Who: EOCS Why: One of the two rating councils that set the rules for what eroge can and cannot have.
Who: CSA Why: One of the two rating councils that set the rules for what eroge can and cannot have.
Who: Hugh Hefner Why: It’s Hugh Hefner - owner of Playboy. Unfortunately he probably knows squat about eroge, so your letter will have to give a bit of background on why you’re writing him. Try to keep that part under a paragraph… don’t wanna bore him. Playboy had a Japanese branch.
Who: Larry Flynt Why:Do you really need to ask? If there’s a rich guy with an axe to grind with feminists and loves porn, it’s Larry Flynt. Again, should give a short background of why you’re writing him. Try to keep that part under a paragraph… don’t wanna bore him.
I’ll update the contact info, if I can find better. Corrections or suggestions happily taken. :o
Question is what do we put on there (i’m not against mailing them directly. I think it may show more impetus that we are willing to spend money to the mail sent to them rather than email, which is free…of course that’s just me and I could be wrong). However, would we have a better chance of getting through if the letters were written in Japanese, which would probably require a standard letter as most in the US don’t speak Japanese?
I really wish I could believe sending a few letters would help, but it’s too late, the EOCS rules are already set, the CSA updated rules will be released in about a week. Anyways, good luck with the mailing campaign.
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