Thoughts on V-Mate

Visual Novel Community Archive, 2000-2009
#61
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I think we agree that, based on all the things that happened the past 2 weeks, it appears that GC doesn't have full autonomy to make decisions. If that is the case, then whether GC understood the implications or not (I personally believe the answer is no, btw) is moot. Whoever is backing GC thinks VM is the answer in boosting sales, and ultimately the market (through sales figures of Hitomi and other subsequent titles) will prove whether VM is the way to go or not.

Personally, I don't like the VM system. I've been spending a lot of time thinking and discussion the implications of this system at these boards. And as someone who occasionally sells of stuff on ebay, VM infringes on my property rights in terms of being able to resell my legitimately purchased copy of a VM linked GC title. That said, if GC's ownership believes VM will be the key to continual survival of GC, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I recognize that many people feel betrayed by GC, and I totally understand why. But I think you should channel your anger in a more productive way. If VM is a no-go for you, what would you do instead to stop piracy and online downloading? now obviously whatever protection GC put on the game disc doesn't work. Instead of an online authentication system, what would you propose in place?

I proposed the floppy Keydisk, but since USOAERS are not registered in a public anagraphic database unlike most of europeans are, this system was discarged "ad priora".

#62
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I think we agree that, based on all the things that happened the past 2 weeks, it appears that GC doesn't have full autonomy to make decisions. If that is the case, then whether GC understood the implications or not (I personally believe the answer is no, btw) is moot.
(...)
Oh but it is not moot, the very fact they did not understand comes to the forefront then because it also shows that whoever is pulling the strings did not understand GC's need to understand. Lack of understanding is never moot because once they learned they were going to use the system they could have had a crash course cram session on the in's and out's of this system, which they did not, lack of knowledge of something you start, something you implement is inexcusable especially for the possible reasons that exist. This is even more true if you consider that had their time of silence been for such a crash course and had they come back knowing as much about this system as those that have used it for a few years, then their silence would have been for a reason, but they came back knowing little more then they fell silent knowing.

quote:
I recognize that many people feel betrayed by GC, and I totally understand why. But I think you should channel your anger in a more productive way. If VM is a no-go for you, what would you do instead to stop piracy and online downloading? now obviously whatever protection GC put on the game disc doesn't work. Instead of an online authentication system, what would you propose in place?

I would ask you the same what would you propose in place of this? Since you asked please answer your own question before I answer it, and your answer cannot be this is the best option, please come up with a new method.

What is a more productive way, submissively bowing to them, while begging for forgiveness?

You strike me as far too submissive to this whole system, you yourself say you don't like it, and yet will back it perhaps only because it is (in your mind) linked to their survival. For me that is not a good enough reason to back anyone or anything, especially if they infringe on my property rights (as you say you feel they do to yours) and tell me in short they don't trust their customers, not to mention telling their customers how they can play a game and likely when they can play a game (internet connections) that was bought from them, then to me they don't deserve at least my support and their success or failure, it becomes all the same to me.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-29-2004).]

#63

Thumbs up, SCDawg ( i pray for the second, instead such people only deserves to disappear from Earth’ surface, LOL!!! ).

#64
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
If VM is a no-go for you, what would you do instead to stop piracy and online downloading?

- Aknowledge there's no way to stop piracy, only to convince people that buying my stuff is better than downloading it. This would be persuasion, not forcing!
- Talk to nu-tech and put advertising in their dvd-boxes.
- Advertise on other websites
- Provide translated demos (rolling or playable demos), stuff to get people interested in the game before it was released and to make people value the game more.
- Get better and more interesting games, not treating the small market of diehard fans as sheep who will buy any subpar product you throw at them.
- Extra FREE (small) stuff together with the game, like postcards or anything other than a "2 page manual". Simple things are cheap and make the buyer feel better about having spent their money, while creating an incentive for actually getting the real thing.

Nowadays, you buy a game and you get what? the game, the box, the manual and the cover of the box. Wow, I feel like the king of the world, except I got a b-game instead of a sinking ship [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] How much would it cost to include with the game some original illustrations on a postcard or a simple small model of one of the game's charas (like those capsule toys) or a keychain or anything like this? I see keychains being sold to the public for $3 and capsule toys for far less. These things attract people because they make the purchasing experience unique, more valuable and superior to the pirated one.

Japanese fans have a slew of merchandise available to them that "extends" the game experience. Artbooks, models, extra content cds, etc. They can feel like they're taking part in something bigger than the game in the cd(s). We don't have any such things. We get the games alone and people expect us to behave like the japanese fans who get the full experience. Yeah, right...

[This message has been edited by GoHF (edited 10-29-2004).]

#65

And these are more arrows to my bow to shot. Thanks GOhF

#66
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
This is not my main concern, but I have to agree with perigee here on this one. It is a big deal to those who can't play at all. Just ask Italicus what he thinks. (Unicorn's not around anymore, so you can't ask him...)

What happened to Unicorn, why isn't he around?
#67
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I recognize that many people feel betrayed by GC, and I totally understand why. But I think you should channel your anger in a more productive way. If VM is a no-go for you, what would you do instead to stop piracy and online downloading? now obviously whatever protection GC put on the game disc doesn't work. Instead of an online authentication system, what would you propose in place?

Bah, I've been trying to come up with "better ways" this whole time. Is GC even listening? Doubtful. They may be "hearing," but they're sure not listening. I've done my part to try to be constructive. Hell, they swiped my best effort and claimed it as their own. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] GC has one last chance to prove itself in my eyes. After that...to hell with them.

#68
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I recognize that many people feel betrayed by GC, and I totally understand why. But I think you should channel your anger in a more productive way. If VM is a no-go for you, what would you do instead to stop piracy and online downloading? now obviously whatever protection GC put on the game disc doesn't work. Instead of an online authentication system, what would you propose in place?
I don't feel betrayed by GC, just frustrated. They're telling me in effect that I can no longer play their games the way I want and they're not going to do anything to help me beyond the possibility of releasing a patch at some undisclosed date.

I've been thinking about VM a lot, too. If my understanding is correct, it may be easier to defeat than people imagine. I won't go into any more detail because I don't want to give someone ideas. Having worked on legitimate applications of such technology as an engineer, I'm pretty sure it's feasible.

What would I try in the way of anti-piracy software instead? I'm not a security expert, and I don't know the latest copy protection tools. After hearing about Starforce, however, I became interested and did some reading. The idea of using an interval timer to throw off debuggers sounds promising. I wonder if GC even considered a non-Japanese security product?

Lamuness: you know why i edited this....

[This message has been edited by Lamuness (edited 10-29-2004).]

#69

Starforce 3 is a powerful protection, but it can do some pretty nasty things to your computer without asking you first. Deleting/renaming some of your drivers, for instance, causing different kinds of compatibility problems with other software, or in some cases, BSOD.

#70
quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
You strike me as far too submissive to this whole system, you yourself say you don't like it, and yet will back it perhaps only because it is (in your mind) linked to their survival. For me that is not a good enough reason to back anyone or anything, especially if they infringe on my property rights (as you say you feel they do to yours) and tell me in short they don't trust their customers, not to mention telling their customers how they can play a game and likely when they can play a game (internet connections) that was bought from them, then to me they don't deserve at least my support and their success or failure, it becomes all the same to me.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-29-2004).]

I don't know if I'm as submissive as you seem to think. There's a difference between being open minded, and giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and being submissive.

I'm still in the open minded category b/c I don't have LMMW in my hand currently and haven't played around w/ VM yet. If it turns out that I can't access VM due to technical reasons, then LMMW would be a 40 dollar toaster for me personally, and I would have no reason to purchase further GC products.

but yes, I do feel that GC thinks VM is linked to their survival. If it turns out that I can't use their products, then whether GC can continue to release games would become irrelevant to me. In the end, I don't see our viewpoints as being all that different.

#71
quote:
Originally posted by GoHF:
- Aknowledge there's no way to stop piracy, only to convince people that buying my stuff is better than downloading it. This would be persuasion, not forcing!
- Talk to nu-tech and put advertising in their dvd-boxes.
- Advertise on other websites
- Provide translated demos (rolling or playable demos), stuff to get people interested in the game before it was released and to make people value the game more.
- Get better and more interesting games, not treating the small market of diehard fans as sheep who will buy any subpar product you throw at them.
- Extra FREE (small) stuff together with the game, like postcards or anything other than a "2 page manual". Simple things are cheap and make the buyer feel better about having spent their money, while creating an incentive for actually getting the real thing.

Nowadays, you buy a game and you get what? the game, the box, the manual and the cover of the box. Wow, I feel like the king of the world, except I got a b-game instead of a sinking ship [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img] How much would it cost to include with the game some original illustrations on a postcard or a simple small model of one of the game's charas (like those capsule toys) or a keychain or anything like this? I see keychains being sold [b]to the public for $3 and capsule toys for far less. These things attract people because they make the purchasing experience unique, more valuable and superior to the pirated one.

Japanese fans have a slew of merchandise available to them that "extends" the game experience. Artbooks, models, extra content cds, etc. They can feel like they're taking part in something bigger than the game in the cd(s). We don't have any such things. We get the games alone and people expect us to behave like the japanese fans who get the full experience. Yeah, right...

[This message has been edited by GoHF (edited 10-29-2004).][/b]

Those are nice ideas, but mostly unworkable. I don't think GC has the kind of marketing budget that would be needed to place advertisements.

GC is getting its licenses from certain developers, like PP, and I highly doubt that they'll be able to go beyond the original group of developers they have on board.

As for merchandise, that's an interesting proposition. I know for a fact that there are products floating around (maybe OOP now, though) for some of the GC titles. For example, a few years ago, I picked up on ebay a small painted figure of Maria from Private Nurse. But in order to convince GC to bring more stuff over, there has to a market (as demonstrated through sales of the games) for related goods.

#72
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
Bah, I've been trying to come up with "better ways" this whole time. Is GC even listening? Doubtful. They may be "hearing," but they're sure not listening. I've done my part to try to be constructive. Hell, they swiped my best effort and claimed it as their own. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] GC has one last chance to prove itself in my eyes. After that...to hell with them.

Yes, they did swipe your VM FAQ. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

#73
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
Those are nice ideas, but mostly unworkable.

The first idea only takes opening one's eyes.

As for the others that aren't related to merchandise or advertisement (basically the demos and other stuff), not only is it workable, it's RIDICULOUS that they don't provide any. The japanese Gamelex has a ton of wallpapers, mp3s, trailers and what not, not to mention the game makers' homepages. All GC has are opening songs, and for only 8 games out of 22.

quote:
I don't think GC has the kind of marketing budget that would be needed to place advertisements.

Well, maybe they could use the money they're putting into VM into getting their game known by people? Like, people don't buy what they don't know, no matter how impossible it is to copy (which is actually irrelevant to people who don't know the game exists).

quote:
GC is getting its licenses from certain developers, like PP, and I highly doubt that they'll be able to go beyond the original group of developers they have on board.

This refers to my "better games" idea, right? Tough for us, I guess. If this is all to blame on the japanese companies, then I withdraw my point.

quote:
As for merchandise, that's an interesting proposition. I know for a fact that there are products floating around (maybe OOP now, though) for some of the GC titles. For example, a few years ago, I picked up on ebay a small painted figure of Maria from Private Nurse. But in order to convince GC to bring more stuff over, there has to a market (as demonstrated through sales of the games) for related goods.

OH, now WE have to convince them to do us the favour of bringing more stuff over... interesting... and here I was thinking that THEY needed to convince me to spend my money on them. Sometimes our views of world get a bit twisted, but please realise the way this relationship works. They have a product they want to sell that we don't need. They have to make us want said product, by means of content, price and whatnot.

EDIT: I'm sorry, but now that I re-read your post, did you mean that "we" (consumers) had to convince GC to bring merchandise to be sold on its own, like artbooks and audio cds? That's ok, I really don't mind if they decide to expand their business from games alone to selling other stuff, but my main point was that they should give small merchandise away with the games (inside the box, taped to the box, whatever) because that would add value to the game and make purchasing it a much better option to pirating it. A box, a laughable manual and a cover simply don't make enough of a difference for most people to justify spending money on a game unless the game is exceptionally good (which is almost never the case). Sorry for any misunderstandings.

By the way, here's an example of a game that's coming out now (if I'm not in mistake) that uses a protection scheme similar to VM, Play-Gate:

http://hrb.jp/bring/01_touji/index.html

As you can see, there are two versions. Normal one at 6500 yens and the P-G one at 4800 yens. This company only has 1 other game out.

[This message has been edited by GoHF (edited 10-29-2004).]

#74
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
now obviously whatever protection GC put on the game disc doesn't work. Instead of an online authentication system, what would you propose in place?

Here is the sad truth: In general, DRM cannot possibly work. It is more or less theoretically impossible. You don't even want me to get into the reasons, but more or less it comes down to "access has to be given to the owner, and once access is given it can be hacked."

There is fundamentally no way to stop pirates. There are plenty of ways to slow them down. It's actually rather easy to prevent most of the general public from directly making a copy. Problem is that once the professional crackers crack the game, it's all over the Internet, and there's nothing you can do to stop people from giving copies to one another. One hole in the system causes the whole system to, eventually, collapse.

#75
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
What happened to Unicorn, why isn't he around?

That information is not available at your clearance level.

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.

... it's not my place to say, it's really his business to share it if he wants.

#76
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
I don't know if I'm as submissive as you seem to think. There's a difference between being open minded, and giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and being submissive.
Despite what it seems I am very openminded too and I look at it this way, they had a chance to explain things more, they had a chance to do many things they did not do, to spend money to try something is not, in my opinion, open-minded but foolish, since you yourself don't like a system but will spend money to test it.

#77
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
Yes, they did swipe your VM FAQ. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

I admit...I thought it was kind of funny at first, maybe even flattering, that Vaga42Bond would rip off my faq so shamelessly. Then I reread his "credit" to me, saying he "commandeered" part of my faq, and I began to become annoyed. I reread it again, and my irritation rose as it became apparent that the copy/paste job was less of a tribute and more of a lazy way out of doing his own work. By the time people started thanking Vaga42Bond for his faq, I was getting pretty angry.

First, you don't "commandeer" other people's work. You ask permission...especially when you're a company representative...sheesh! Second, you don't say you used "part" of someone else's work when he obviously copy-pasted it word-for-word, confirmed a few "probably's", and pasted in a privacy statement. That's taking credit for MY hard work, representing many hours reading through all the threads as well as the time the FAQ took to write and maintain. I'm sorry, but where I come from we consider such acts to be plagiarism, punishable by expulsion from the university.

Sorry if I sound selfish, but it's very frustrating when other people take the credit for something you've put a lot of time and effort into. I tried to get this across to Vaga42Bond with a little forced but directed humor, but he's either too dim to get the message or too lazy to bother with a reply. With luck he'll come across this and realize that plagiarizing others is not a valid short-cut to earning his paycheck. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-30-2004).]

#78
quote:
Originally posted by Dark_Shiki:
I admit...I thought it was kind of funny at first, maybe even flattering, that Vaga42Bond would rip off my faq so shamelessly. Then I reread his "credit" to me, saying he "commandeered" part of my faq, and I began to become annoyed. I reread it again, and my irritation rose as it became apparent that the copy/paste job was less of a tribute and more of a lazy way out of doing his own work. By the time people started thanking Vaga42Bond for his faq, I was getting pretty angry.

First, you don't "commandeer" other people's work. You ask permission...especially when you're a company representative...sheesh! Second, you don't say you used "part" of someone else's work when he obviously copy-pasted it word-for-word, confirmed a few "probably's", and pasted in a privacy statement. That's taking credit for MY hard work, representing many hours reading through all the threads as well as the time the FAQ took to write and maintain. I'm sorry, but where I come from we consider such acts to be plagiarism, punishable by expulsion from the university.

Sorry if I sound selfish, but it's very frustrating when other people take the credit for something you've put a lot of time and effort into. I tried to get this across to Vaga42Bond with a little forced but directed humor, but he's either too dim to get the message or too lazy to bother with a reply. With luck he'll come across this and realize that plagiarizing others is not a valid short-cut to earning his paycheck. [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Dark_Shiki (edited 10-30-2004).]

1: I'm not a company represntative. I'm an employee, and a proof-reader at that, but I'm no company represntative. That bit on slamming the NNVOHOIAD FAQ was mostly to correct some of the details and add some key points. As it is, the only thing really offical about it was I was allowed time to do it at work, and that I got the information straight from management.

2: I'm not here 24-7. If you haven't notice, I'm not usually here during the weekend. And weekends for me start from Thursday Evenings to Tuesday Mornings. Guess what? I don't see anything during that weekend, unless I happen to wander by, like right now.

3: I have no idea why they're thanking me either. If I was here to notice what the hell was going on, which I'm not, since I'm suppose to be out relaxing, I'd go point them at you, for writing one helluva guide.

4: There is no 4.

5: com·man·deer
Pronunciation Key (kmn-dîr)
tr.v. com·man·deered, com·man·deer·ing, com·man·deers

1. To force into military service.
2. To seize for military use; confiscate.
[b]3. To take arbitrarily or by force.[b]

#79

The problem is that the faq isn’t a required duty of vaga, if I understood correctly. He wasn’t required to make any more announcements regarding VM. whoever updates the GC website could have done that. So in vaga’s mind, the faq is probably a favor to all of us.

That said, I think the “unofficial” faq should have given proper credit where it’s due.

#80
quote:
Originally posted by Ecchifan:
The problem is that the faq isn't a required duty of vaga, if I understood correctly. He wasn't required to make any more announcements regarding VM. whoever updates the GC website could have done that. So in vaga's mind, the faq is probably a favor to all of us.

That said, I think the "unofficial" faq should have given proper credit where it's due.

Nah, wasn't about the "doing a favor" aspect. Just decided that there were too many rumors and wrong info floating around, so I corrected all of it, and added in 2 things that weren't questioned before, but people asked about anyway. The ammount of questions that was being asked was getting out of hand. I added a little blurb giving a bit more credit in just now, and edited it a little. I'll probably add more of a blurb as soon as I'm less cranky about things.

[This message has been edited by Vaga42Bond (edited 10-30-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Vaga42Bond (edited 10-30-2004).]