Tsukushite Agechau 4 -I'm Gonna Serve You : Our Honeymo

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:

Also, licensing in Japan isn't always as straightforward and that could also prevent a game from coming over. For instance, the license for producing the game could be held by one company but another company could hold the license to the artwork. In that case, both would need to be worked out before an overseas license can be put together.


Yes but my point was, I am convinced that if they truly wanted to do it they could, there is little that is impossible when people work to make it possible. That goes with the artwork too I think, if both sides wanted to get this done they could, so I am wondering if they just do not want to or have not given it a full effort yet to try and get it done.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-24-2003).]

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Yes but my point was, I am convinced that if they truly wanted to do it they could, there is little that is impossible when people work to make it possible. That goes with the artwork too I think, if both sides wanted to get this done they could, so I am wondering if they just do not want to or have not given it a full effort yet to try and get it done.

Hmm, I think we need to clarify a bit here. Which "they" are you refering to? The Japanese side, the translating side or both? Yes, if both sides are gung-ho for it and want to put up the effort, it'll get done. But for the most part, getting the games translated to English really isn't a priority for the Japanese companies. No matter how much G-Collections, PeaPri, and others want it to happen or are putting out the effort for it, if there's a stop on the other end, not much gets done.

Well if the group is dedicated enough they can overcome almost anything. But the problem is, is it worth it for them to do it or not.

Indeed, the ‘they’ I referred to was the collective they of everyone that must be involved. and thank you wanfu2k1 that is what I was thinking as well, and I think if they tested the idea they might find it is worth it, but they don’t seem to test the idea, only go by the past which is a horrible indicator of what the new buyers since that past will do with this product.

What I do not understand though about it not being a priorty is, they, in this case meaning the Japanese companies, have to make money off of this, translation to English opens up numerous other markets in which I am sure their games sell quite well and I know profits are eaten up with the translation fees and such, but everyone involved has to make some profit right? More profit means longer time the business can run, in the most basic sense of thinking about profit.

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
What I do not understand though about it not being a priorty is, they, in this case meaning the Japanese companies, have to make money off of this, translation to English opens up numerous other markets in which I am sure their games sell quite well and I know profits are eaten up with the translation fees and such, but everyone involved has to make some profit right? More profit means longer time the business can run, in the most basic sense of thinking about profit.

Trying to think of way to answer this without getting somebody huffed up but I couldn't do it. So anyways, here's my answer to that question. (i.e. it's my opinion, agree or disagree as you wish.)

One answer is that the English markets havn't proven viable just yet and the risks involved outweigh the benefits. Overall profits for the Japanese companies are very minimal compared to the profits they make in their own local market. And translated copies, especially when adapted to run natively with the English OS versions, also get strongly pirated. (Yes, even untranslated they'd probably be pirated but compare the download numbers for something like Season of Sakura with a comparable non-translated title and you'll see what I mean.)

Now, let's take some numbers from G-Collections. They've been up for over a year now and have put out a variety of titles. My latest order of Crescendo was 1671. Now I know that's not the total number of orders, since my original order when they opened was #1042. So let's say they started at 1000 and so at the time of my order, they've had 671 orders from their online site, of which I had 11 of those orders. So just by myself, I'm accounting for 1.6% or so of their online orders, and you can bet they do way more sales in their local market. And these are at prices roughly 60% of the relative sale price of their untranslated titles. And you can also assume the profit margin on a per unit basis of their untranslated games are also higher.

That's why I believe some of the "big" companies have yet to translate their games, even though they'd be able to devote more total resources though less relatively to their overall resources. (i.e. devoting 1% of their resources would be like a small company devoting 10% of their resources.) They already hold a good portion of the establish market, there's no pressing need to expand and isn't a priority. They can wait till others prove the viability of the English market before making their own move.

And for those already taking the risk, I'm guessing while it's a priority, your established markets are always higher priority. It's those markets that are paying the bills while you work on developing the new market.

I have a few more answers and even some parallels but this post is probably longer than what anyone would want to read anyways. So we'll go with any responses to this one before hitting some more, eh? [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img]

Yup what Ekylo just said Right now there just isn’t a great enough fanbase to justify other companies releasing their product. PP and g-collections can be thought of as pioneers in getting something new to be accepted here. Like how animego and ADV a long time ago put out the first anime tapes.

quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
Yup what Ekylo just said [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img] Right now there just isn't a great enough fanbase to justify other companies releasing their product. PP and g-collections can be thought of as pioneers in getting something new to be accepted here. Like how animego and ADV a long time ago put out the first anime tapes.

And the pioneer companies who ventured into translating but crashed horribly (eg. Jast / Otaku / RCY / Himeya) didn't help either. >_<
Hobibox is nearly dead as well...

quote:
Originally posted by Angry Gamer:
Hobibox is nearly dead as well...

Are you sure?
I think they are just slow, badly organized and poor in keeping their potential customers informed.
However, this is the first time I heard a rumor of Hobibox really going down the drain.

If you check the “Brave Soul Update” thread, Peter gives an update on the status of Gun Shield Warrior Sakigake. (Because I asked!) They are just really slow.

------------------
“His last thought is wry, Not bad for a dead man.” Moon Knight vol.1, #1 (1980)

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:

One answer is that the English markets havn't proven viable just yet and the risks involved outweigh the benefits. Overall profits for the Japanese companies are very minimal compared to the profits they make in their own local market. And translated copies, especially when adapted to run natively with the English OS versions, also get strongly pirated. (Yes, even untranslated they'd probably be pirated but compare the download numbers for something like Season of Sakura with a comparable non-translated title and you'll see what I mean.)

And for those already taking the risk, I'm guessing while it's a priority, your established markets are always higher priority. It's those markets that are paying the bills while you work on developing the new market.


With the pirating though, what age groups are doing it the most? What I will say might have a lot of disagreement but it is my view from the sociological perspective on the world. If it is the 'underage group' well thanks to laws, which might or might not be justified when it comes to governing the social morays (and perhaps replacing the responibility of the parents) of personal choice to expose oneself to these ideas and concepts, they will always be the biggest pirates of such games because they cannot legally buy them; so judging soly on that basis might not ever prove to these companies a profit can be found in this new market.

Now if you target groups of the 'legal' age, and those are not hard to target or find, I still think greater profit can be made, and yes it is starting new markets and yes it will cost and perhaps shift you from some established markets, but they are already good solid markets, you don't need to sell them on your product. They will buy it so long as it is good and new and you thank them for it.

Once more this is probably unanswerable, has any of these companies done a study to see if once the market is established, it will or will not the reap a profit with those that can buy, versus those that would love to buy but are forced to more unconventional methods due to age laws?

I realize I am focusing mostly on the pirate issue from your reply, but it is one issue that within a given age group and perhaps the biggest pirating age group you will never overcome unless you can change laws and the rather, to me, arachic way of thinking that people under 18 are too young and too *coughs* innocent to be exposed to these materials.

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Once more this is probably unanswerable, has any of these companies done a study to see if once the market is established, it will or will not the reap a profit with those that can buy, versus those that would love to buy but are forced to more unconventional methods due to age laws?

I wouldn't be surprised if there was one. But I would guess it would be more of a sociological study than a business one. Partially for the legal aspect, partially for the income aspect. For a business, having a means to buy their product would usually also factor into any study for them. Seems a little odd, but I still run into 19 and 20 year olds who can buy the games legally but won't because their parents still control the purse strings. And how often will a 12 year old consistently have the purchasing power for these games? (Yes they do business studies with those age groups, but it's usually for products their parents would buy for them, like toys. How many parents would readily admit they'd buy "Come See Me Tonight" for their teenager?)

quote:

I realize I am focusing mostly on the pirate issue from your reply, but it is one issue that within a given age group and perhaps the biggest pirating age group you will never overcome unless you can change laws and the rather, to me, arachic way of thinking that people under 18 are too young and too *coughs* innocent to be exposed to these materials.

Hmm, no argument from me on that, not after spending a summer with 5th graders who knew way more about sex than I did at their age. (And I was less than a decade older than them at the time...) I know I sort of wrestle with the dilemma when I'm discussing these games and find out the person I'm discussing with is underage. (I mean, why tell me? If you don't say anything, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're legally of age.)

And of those I do talk to, most of them say they'd love pay for the games, if they only could legally. I do take them at their word, but there's a healthy dose of skepticism in there as well. After all, I have a hard enough time getting my friends, who are of legal age and make decent money, to stop pirating things.

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
I wouldn't be surprised if there was one. But I would guess it would be more of a sociological study than a business one. Partially for the legal aspect, partially for the income aspect. For a business, having a means to buy their product would usually also factor into any study for them. Seems a little odd, but I still run into 19 and 20 year olds who can buy the games legally but won't because their parents still control the purse strings. And how often will a 12 year old consistently have the purchasing power for these games? (Yes they do business studies with those age groups, but it's usually for products their parents would buy for them, like toys. How many parents would readily admit they'd buy "Come See Me Tonight" for their teenager?)

I think as to the parents that will buy them, that once more depends on the market you choose to target. Maybe I am being overly optimistic based on my own upbringing, but I think that target parents and children from 'higher educational' families you will find much more liberal thinking adults, that might allow their 16 year old to play such a game, along with perhaps a lectual on responsbility and the fact that such a situtation as that one is less likely to happen then them breaking the bank at very casino in Vegas. Seriously, if you target the right people you can sell loads of anything, I think, and I do think this, P.T. Barnum proved that targeting the right group can get your product sold. For him he self declared targeting the gulliable, for the games I say target the liberal, and no that is not a dirty word to those that might think it is, and you will find mass sales even with some parents, not all, but some buying it for their younger teenagers.

I too have noticed that children know more at even age 8. When I worked at a summer camp, these 8 year olds mentioned watching a particular HBO show I know, as liberal and free minded as my parents are and were, I would have had a hard time justifying the need to watch them when I was 8 years old, and to be honest the second the are exposed to other people that know more about these topics then they do and they get right or false information, they are not longer innocent.

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
And of those I do talk to, most of them say they'd love pay for the games, if they only could legally. I do take them at their word, but there's a healthy dose of skepticism in there as well. After all, I have a hard enough time getting my friends, who are of legal age and make decent money, to stop pirating things.

As to this, and perhaps this is once again overly optimistic, but I think if they perhaps released the games in both markets at once, and yes I know that is a lot of production for one game, perhaps people will be less likely to pirate. My thinking is if it is avaliable and is so in boatloads and for reasonable prices, not saying these are not reasonable in today's market, there will be less incentive to pirate since it is so readily avaliable. Yes by pirating you still get it for free, but I still think the incentive will be less if the game is made even more avaliable in terms of speed, and places. Part of the problem as I see it with the pirating now along with the age, is lack of mass avaliablity and limited methods of payment.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-27-2003).]

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
With the pirating though, what age groups are doing it the most? What I will say might have a lot of disagreement but it is my view from the sociological perspective on the world. If it is the 'underage group' well thanks to laws, which might or might not be justified when it comes to governing the social morays (and perhaps replacing the responibility of the parents) of personal choice to expose oneself to these ideas and concepts, they will always be the biggest pirates of such games because they cannot legally buy them; so judging soly on that basis might not ever prove to these companies a profit can be found in this new market.

Now if you target groups of the 'legal' age, and those are not hard to target or find, I still think greater profit can be made, and yes it is starting new markets and yes it will cost and perhaps shift you from some established markets, but they are already good solid markets, you don't need to sell them on your product. They will buy it so long as it is good and new and you thank them for it.

Once more this is probably unanswerable, has any of these companies done a study to see if once the market is established, it will or will not the reap a profit with those that can buy, versus those that would love to buy but are forced to more unconventional methods due to age laws?

I realize I am focusing mostly on the pirate issue from your reply, but it is one issue that within a given age group and perhaps the biggest pirating age group you will never overcome unless you can change laws and the rather, to me, arachic way of thinking that people under 18 are too young and too *coughs* innocent to be exposed to these materials.


This is very true - however, the trick is to get ahold of these (underage) patrons and do your best to ensure that when they DO have the option, they buy the games. I've heard the people who are so wrapped up in the propaganda spewing all over the net they seem to think NObody should be making money off these games. The people with what used to be the 'fuck JAST' attitude who wrote a FAQ where they whined that 'Peter is the reason you do not post links. He looks for them and shuts them down, and then all the people who the generous uploader wanted to help are SOL.' and who respond to questioning with a very angry 'you know how much trouble it is to upload something???'

Ideally we want to impress upon people that they should buy what they like, and if there are reasons they must turn to less-than-legitimate sources...they should at least keep in mind that these sources are less than ideal.

quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
This is very true - however, the trick is to get ahold of these (underage) patrons and do your best to ensure that when they DO have the option, they buy the games. I've heard the people who are so wrapped up in the propaganda spewing all over the net they seem to think NObody should be making money off these games. The people with what used to be the 'fuck JAST' attitude who wrote a FAQ where they whined that 'Peter is the reason you do not post links. He looks for them and shuts them down, and then all the people who the generous uploader wanted to help are SOL.' and who respond to questioning with a very angry 'you know how much trouble it is to upload something???'

Ideally we want to impress upon people that they should buy what they like, and if there are reasons they must turn to less-than-legitimate sources...they should at least keep in mind that these sources are less than ideal.


Oh I agree with you that people should buy what they like and that they should be reminded that some sources are less then ideal if they must turn to them, but I also think that people continually miss that age restrictions, and I know it is the law, but they miss that these are nonetheless one of the biggest cause of piracy of games and at those times, I feel, there must be a less well known, but nonetheless on some level legitmate market avaliable to them to stem the piracy.

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
I think as to the parents that will buy them, that once more depends on the market you choose to target. Maybe I am being overly optimistic based on my own upbringing, but I think that target parents and children from 'higher educational' families you will find much more liberal thinking adults, that might allow their 16 year old to play such a game, along with perhaps a lectual on responsbility and the fact that such a situtation as that one is less likely to happen then them breaking the bank at very casino in Vegas. Seriously, if you target the right people you can sell loads of anything, I think, and I do think this, P.T. Barnum proved that targeting the right group can get your product sold. For him he self declared targeting the gulliable, for the games I say target the liberal, and no that is not a dirty word to those that might think it is, and you will find mass sales even with some parents, not all, but some buying it for their younger teenagers.

But parents on that level of thinking tend to be the exception rather than the rule since most parents, even very liberal minded ones, tend to be conservative when it comes to their children. And when you target an exception, you're back to a small market. As for P.T. Barnum, it wasn't so much that he had a target market, but that he knew how to market what he had and about human nature.

quote:
..but I also think that people continually miss that age restrictions, and I know it is the law, but they miss that these are nonetheless one of the biggest cause of piracy of games and at those times, I feel, there must be a less well known, but nonetheless on some level legitmate market avaliable to them to stem the piracy.

Well, yes, most people forget about the age restriction, but that's also more specifically for stuff like bishoujo games with adult content. Having a legitimate market, with high availability and reasonable prices hasn't slowed piracy of mainstream games or music. There's a strong allure to getting something for nothing.

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
But parents on that level of thinking tend to be the exception rather than the rule since most parents, even very liberal minded ones, tend to be conservative when it comes to their children. And when you target an exception, you're back to a small market. As for P.T. Barnum, it wasn't so much that he had a target market, but that he knew how to market what he had and about human nature.

I am not sure they are as rare as people think, most of those people I know that are parents, or new parents think along the lines of the following "The best way to protect them, is to arm them with knowledge, the best way to arm them with knowledge is to expose them to these ideas at an early age." Maybe I just happen to know a majority of the minority but from those that I know I see a huge untapped and perfectly legal market since the law only states, in my reading of it, it is illegal for people under a certain age to purchase, not play but purchase these games.

Barnum though knew how to market to the masses and he knew how to target the gullable, the best example is how he got people to leave, no one wanted to leave his wonderful show, so he painted a fancy sign that looked like another exhibit sign that read The Great Egress, and people filed out. If you know who to target and how to target them I am a firm believer any market with time can lead to profit.

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
Well, yes, most people forget about the age restriction, but that's also more specifically for stuff like bishoujo games with adult content. Having a legitimate market, with high availability and reasonable prices hasn't slowed piracy of mainstream games or music. There's a strong allure to getting something for nothing.

Music is not reasonably priced and the music industry is stupid enough to admit that in their attempt to stem piracy. If it were reasonably priced they would not offer each song for 1 cent downloads or under ten for the album. They are either admitting they can live with less money or that their songs and CD's are overpriced to begin with, meaning they reap what they sow when they see people trading for free instead of spending 20 plus dollars on a CD the music industry now will let you download for less then ten. Some might argue the same is with games, how else can a game from 2001 the day it is released be worth 40 dollars but two years later, despite the fact the same product times and production costs went into that game two years ago, now only be worth 25 dollars. Everyone pads so everyone makes a nice profit, therefore everything is higher priced then if everyone would be willing for a smaller profit. That is what leads to the piracy that you are referring too with the mainstream games and music, the padding to inflate the price while adding profit to many of those people that pass it down the line to the consumer. It is not cynical, it is based on many lectures by many professors who might themselves be cynical, but backed with enough research to take a life to sort through, on this being at least part of the reason prices are as high as they are in some cases.

Keep this in mind too, a basic idea about worth, an object is true worth, beyond break even on the production costs, lies in the amount of money, goods, services, etc, someone is willing to exchange to get that object.

[This message has been edited by SCDawg (edited 10-28-2003).]

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
I am not sure they are as rare as people think, most of those people I know that are parents, or new parents think along the lines of the following "The best way to protect them, is to arm them with knowledge, the best way to arm them with knowledge is to expose them to these ideas at an early age." Maybe I just happen to know a majority of the minority but from those that I know I see a huge untapped and perfectly legal market since the law only states, in my reading of it, it is illegal for people under a certain age to purchase, not play but purchase these games.

Hmm, most of the parents I know are for "arming with knowledge" but they wouldn't use bishoujo games as a part of that means. (Kana would definitely be an interesting educational tool when you think about it.) And I believe you're right in the usual wording of the law, but I'd have to look it up. Either way, it'd end up as one of those "intent of the law vs. letter of the law" arguments.

quote:
Barnum though knew how to market to the masses and he knew how to target the gullable, the best example is how he got people to leave, no one wanted to leave his wonderful show, so he painted a fancy sign that looked like another exhibit sign that read The Great Egress, and people filed out. If you know who to target and how to target them I am a firm believer any market with time can lead to profit.

Marketing to the masses is not a target market. Target markets are subsets of the mass market. And actually that's an example of him using his knowledge of human behavior rather than of targeting the gullible. If he was charging them specifically to see the "Great Egress", then it would be, but they were paying to see the whole show, not that one specific "exhibit". What he knew was that the majority of people would a) not have the knowledge of what "egress" meant, b) be driven by curiosity, and c) have a preconcieved perception on what the "great egress" was based on an expectations and established patterns. (one of the "misdirection" tricks magicians use)

quote:
If it were reasonably priced they would not offer each song for 1 cent downloads or under ten for the album.

Actually, this is what I was referring to rather than the prices they put on the CDs. They have made relatively cheap downloads available, and it still hasn't slowed piracy down. Same for software. Relatively useful software, readily available via download and other means and for spare change prices, still get pirated.

quote:
Keep this in mind too, a basic idea about worth, an object is true worth, beyond break even on the production costs, lies in the amount of money, goods, services, etc, someone is willing to exchange to get that object.

Yes, "worth" also includes what a person is willing to exchange for an object but there's also a difference between the willingness to exchange and an actual act of exchanging. When you ask someone what they are "willing" to spend or give up, it's a theoretical maximum. When presented with an opportunity to relinquish less than that maximum, people will usually take that opportunity.

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
Yes, "worth" also includes what a person is willing to exchange for an object but there's also a difference between the willingness to exchange and an actual act of exchanging. When you ask someone what they are "willing" to spend or give up, it's a theoretical maximum. When presented with an opportunity to relinquish less than that maximum, people will usually take that opportunity.

Actually the masses are a traget market, the problem is no one sees them as such so they miss a great chance, they see the masses as a huge group, but think how many different subsets of people make up the masses and you realize how hard it is in fact to target the masses without alienating any of the subset groups.

As to the letter vs. intent of the law all I will say is this, to most people intent is a personal interpertation and therefore, in my opinion, invalid in setting standards for anyone but that person outside of a judges ruling in a court of law.

That is not really true about worth either, I don't think. Sure if you want to give something to someone they will give it up, but most people will also never start by offering you the most they think it is worth. That is insane to do that, you offer a pitance and have the other side come down. To be honest, I think given the chance, most people might try and offer you a clean tissue for a game, because maybe in their minds the clean tissue represents something that you can use and the game is something they can use, sure one is practical and one is enjoyment, but what is the exchange of money for games?

quote:
Originally posted by SCDawg:
Actually the masses are a traget market, the problem is no one sees them as such so they miss a great chance, they see the masses as a huge group, but think how many different subsets of people make up the masses and you realize how hard it is in fact to target the masses without alienating any of the subset groups.

*shrug* Different econ professors I guess. Mine made it quite clear there was a difference between "mass market" (large collective of non-targeted demographic) and "target market" (a specific demographic within the market.) It was even on the final exam. (Which I hope is the only reason I remember that difference after all these years...)

quote:
As to the letter vs. intent of the law all I will say is this, to most people intent is a personal interpertation and therefore, in my opinion, invalid in setting standards for anyone but that person outside of a judges ruling in a court of law.

You should sit in on some of the arguments I have with my best friend about it. He's a law student. Wants to go into business law specifically. We drive each other insane over topics like this...

quote:

That is not really true about worth either, I don't think. Sure if you want to give something to someone they will give it up, but most people will also never start by offering you the most they think it is worth. That is insane to do that, you offer a pitance and have the other side come down. To be honest, I think given the chance, most people might try and offer you a clean tissue for a game, because maybe in their minds the clean tissue represents something that you can use and the game is something they can use, sure one is practical and one is enjoyment, but what is the exchange of money for games?

Hmm, I see your point. *shrug* I could be wrong, I'm trying to recall terms from a class I took eight years ago (I'm even trying to remember the difference between "worth" and "value" now.) I do remember there was a discussion over the differences between how much someone would be "willing" to spend, how much they'd "prefer" to spend and how much they "would" spend. The "willing" and "would" amounts were theoretical and actual maximums, while the "prefer" amount is where people start their negotiations.

quote:
Originally posted by ekylo:
Hmm, I see your point. *shrug* I could be wrong, I'm trying to recall terms from a class I took eight years ago (I'm even trying to remember the difference between "worth" and "value" now.) I do remember there was a discussion over the differences between how much someone would be "willing" to spend, how much they'd "prefer" to spend and how much they "would" spend. The "willing" and "would" amounts were theoretical and actual maximums, while the "prefer" amount is where people start their negotiations.

Most of what I learned about the economy came from a economy professor who had a second PhD in Sociology, this guy was either insane, as I have found many of my past, and present professors as well as my colleagues in Sociology to be, or a genius for the double major, perhaps taught many radical and yet to be ground breaking ideas, as he writes his books to make them published ideas. At any rate I think a lot of the views he espoused in terms of the economy and worth have their foundations in Sociology, which does not make them invalid but makes them less pure economy based.

As for the law, well those are my ideas and that comes from a vastly different background which basically states so long as the letter of the law is not broken the spirit of it can be bent in half if in so doing it best serves the interests of the individuals family or the people while not brining harm to or restricting the same rights of any other living entity. So perhaps mine is a unusual view for this world, people can do as they want so long as harm is not brought nor freedom to do the same denied to another.