…*
You’re truly obsessed with twincest, Narg. :eek:
[ 10-26-2007, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]
[quote]
Originally posted by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol:
[b]You’re truly obsessed with twincest, Narg. 
I’ve even attended one of the twin festivals in Twinsburg, Ohio. I only got in, because a pair of twins who know about my fetish, offered to sponsor me (ordinarily, only twins are allowed). What a happy day it was for Narg, let me tell ya.
OLF, may I ask what are your reasons for anti-twincest? I just cant understand whats wrong with twincest.
I remember that. I thought you had updated it since i can think of a couple where none of those apply in these types of game.
And while it doesn’t exist as far as i know, I can easily figure a situation for
Third Class, First Category, Limited License. In fact i already have a good story idea structure based around this. 
Don’t you realize that perform such an event, will bring about the end of everything that we know? Such an affront to the threads that bind reality itself, will only bring sheer devastation on an unimaginable scale! It’s like dividing by zero… only… it’s dividing the twincest!!
Heh. I could do it and still make it a twincestful game you’d like Narg. That’s how confident I am. I didn’t, FE say that it was the only twincestful thing.
And division by zero is technically not impossible…
[ 10-27-2007, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Jinnai ]
Chuck Norris could do it.
And you’re only realizing this now?
You know, “I fail to see the appeal of twincest” is as different to “I’m against twincest” as “Apple isn’t my favourite fruit” is to “I can’t stand apples”.
I’d wish people to stop considering you have to either wholly love something or that means you’re completely hating it…
Anyway, about twincest, I think the concept implies more lust involved than true love, to really appeal to me. I also fail to see the appeal of having more than one person loving you; not that I mind the numbers, but I fail to see why it’s more desirable it being two than one. In other words, what’s so special with twincest?
I’ve known you don’t hate twincest, recalling your devotion to Kohaku. There’s also the recent postings we’ve had, that mentioned To Heart 2. 
Chihaya and Chihiro in the truly awesome twincest drama of Futari de Hitotsu no Koigokoro go through this ordeal. The sisters don’t have any intention of sharing at the start – and indeed Chihaya despises the player for being stuck in a possible arranged marriage with him. Thus she does her best to be as spiteful as possible, to not be chosen: soon realizing that if she isn’t picked, she’s only dumping the problem on her sister… which is not what she wanted either. And Chihiro… well… she thinks the arranged marriage is just a silly game that will blow over when cooler heads prevail. I’d rather not spoil the plot… but needless to say, it’s good realistic twincest.
Aside from the “two for the price of one” deal?
Mostly though, I’d factor that it’s the human nature to want a “complete set” - so to speak. Getting one sister is only half the zygote. That and nature loves symmetry.
[ 10-29-2007, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]
In my opinion, “ToHeart2” is one of the best work in the matter, with Ruri understanding her infatuation to San-chan before graduating to Takaaki. The reason why I ranked their story so high (and, amusingly, why so many “fans” ranked it low, because it’s “more about the twins’ relationship than about their relationship to the protagonist”), without a doubt. My problem is probably how the love is so often an immature, teenager one, instead of a more mature one, one I’d feel has the potential to truly last. Of course, one may say the protagonists are teenagers, but then one may say the players are not and would enjoy something more… mature. Infatuation, teen love and appealing to the otaku crowd aren’t topics I enjoy.
Then, that’s even more bullshit to me. Exoticness and how society views something are outside factors. As long as it’s allowed (i.e. legal), why would you let outside factors determine your tastes, even more when your enjoyment is concerned? For my part, I build whatever I like or dislike regardless of how the world around me sees it… as long as I won’t be persecuted for them, that it, because it’d be a pain.
Human nature is greedy and always wants more than what it can manage. Not something deserving of appraises, IMO. Even if your “human nature” pushes you in this way, I think a man should try to overcome it and choose his own road rather than his basic instincts.
And you’re totally right. But these are faults not inherent to twincest, but to the methods commonly used to deliver twincest. I can name about half a dozen titles that feature twincest and aim to frame it in a realistic “lasting love” scenario (so to speak, considering some might have supernatural elements) - and of course I can easily name four or five dozen that do not (i.e. as you point out, pure lust over realistic attraction). But the same goes for any fetish medium: maids, nuns, etc…
But then I think that’s the key term here: fetish. Twincest is always sold as a fetish, rather than a “seriousness” – it’s catered directly to those people who want it, rather than convince people that they need it.
This is why Futari de Hitotsu no Koigokoro failed so miserably - putting Giant Panda out of business in the process - yet had an outstanding story and high production values. Purist twincest fans were hyped with the sales pitch that the title had twincest as a main focus, yet word of mouth revealed disappointment that the twincest was not “extreme” (even when the twincest happens it’s fairly tame) or in high content. It was a title that placed tremendous focus on the drama between dating twins and how twincest would realistically evolve. Not twincest sex – but twincest love. On the flipside, people who are interested in drama and true love, only saw the hype that was twincest. Thus thinking it was another “smut” title in fancy clothes.
To a lesser extent, it’s probably why Mediaworks failed with Futakoi (in that it did not have the same level of success as Sister Princess). The “softcore” groups feared it was more sex than moe, while the “hardcore” groups feared it as more moe than sex. And ironically the end result was ironically neither and a mix of both: because the series had a moe and ettchi version to try and appease everyone. Hence the two games… the two anime series… etc…
Most developers merely view twincest as a derivative of the harem concept: especially since that’s the group which twincest sells to anyways. Reflection of this can be seen in what twincest is often package as: harem-ish titles with little forethought into the plot. But then that’s what they’re being marketed to and for, so it’s not a negative in of itself: just an avenue of sale that doesn’t agree with everyone.
But yes. When you buy a twincest title, you’re buying it for the twins. It’s the whole point. Using To Heart 2 again: the core gimmick and plot device for Sango and Ruri, was the fact that the were twins. Sure they added more to it and gave them depth – never a bad thing mind you – but at the center of it all, it was twincest and always alluded as such. They were arguably a “fanservice bandwagon” pair – given that it was the height of the twincest fetish in Japan.
Of course that would change nothing to you, and I’m sure you’re already aware that I’m not trying to sell you into accepting twincest as the greatest thing ever (even though it is) – that would be futile. Let the non-believers be denied Heaven. I’m merely explaining all this for the rhetoric: arguing of the mere sake of arguing. The Ancient Greeks would be proud.
Ah! Philosophy!
I’m of the mind that the more a person tries to deny their primal natures, the less they are aware that it’s always driving them. Civilization exists to serve our base desires: be it to sate our laziness (creating something that makes hard work easier) or fill us with pleasure (music, literature, and art). The allusions to what humanity has accomplished, merely to ease animalistic instinct is endless and everywhere. In that same cloth, I don’t believe in negative primal desires: merely bad choices to relieve it.
EDIT
This twincest thread is lacking twincest. 
[ 10-29-2007, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]
Miwa Ueda created new manga- Papillion ~Hana to Chou~. You might know her that she created Peach Girl.
The general plot revolves around the character Ageha and her change from an unattractive, ordinary girl into a beautiful and popular one, hence the title of the manga, ‘papillon’ (French for butterfly); Ageha goes through a “metamorphosis”, like a cocoon to a butterfly. From wikipedia.
Ageha and her sister Hana are identical twins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papillon_-hana_to_chou-
http://betsufure.net/lineup/papillon/
Well it still an English translated title with twincest. There wasn’t a comment about quality of the piece as a whole (which is somewhat debatable since most people haven’t had the luxury of seeing the sequel to measure it by and imo it is necessary for a title than ends like that…but that’s another debate…), just if any English translated titles had twincest and Narg didn’t name it.
Natural order of all of nature tends toward symmetry, not just for humans, and who are we to defy the natural order of things?
[ 10-30-2007, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Jinnai ]
“Always” is the key word, though.
You misread me. I talked about “overcoming the human nature”, not “denying it”. There’s a big difference between the two: in the former, you’re the one in control, in the latter, your basic instincts are the ones in control. Civilization may have grown up in order to satisfy the human natural search for pleasures, it wouldn’t have gone far if all man did was to follow his human surges. As an example, laws (formal or social) are artificial constructions essential to the development of civilization yet contrary to human nature (to follow abstract rules rather than basic instincts).
In the case of twincest, satisfying your basic physical sexual pleasure may be natural, I’d think that courting a satisfying intellectual pleasure is more rewarding, if only because its effect are more lasting. A good story will remain in your mind (and heart), come back at times to comfort and pleasure you more than an erotic stimulus, no matter how good its depiction was.
Human beings, the creatures who, by essence, defied the natural order of things since their creation.
[ 10-30-2007, 08:10 AM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]
Thanks dude. This is Third Class, Third Category, Limited License at it’s finest. I’ll be keeping up on this series to see how it ends.
Ah but then that would be a failing of marketing, and how those who currently are selling twincest, fail to realize it’s full potential… or perhaps that of the gamer, since what they buy influence how the market trends. As mentioned before, story intensive twincest doesn’t do as well as the harem sexfests, so studios focus less on making dramas and focus more on sexfests. It does not mean twincest lacks story - indeed it adds new dimensions - but those companies that did not “go with the flow” are out of business, or lost sales during those years.
Laws were merely formed to fulfill man’s greatest instinct: self preservation. As social creatures, Man cannot abide in chaos and expect to survive. So while they are artificial by design - much like a painting is not naturally occurring in of itself - they are still a product of our base nature.
However in the basic underlying sense, I believe we are of the same mind… if only looking at it from different prospectives.
However this is personal perception: in which each person is different. You and I could go back and forth endlessly on why twincest is worthy of praise and why twincest is not worthy of praise: but unless one of us stumbles across a defining epiphany, the end result would be wasted time. Each of us are already entrenched in our perception of things, thus guiding what we view as pleasurable and lasting… and those which are not.
We might have greater success in convincing the PM of Israel that Hitler had the right idea, than truly changing each other’s position.
[ 10-30-2007, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Nargrakhan ]
It may just be a matter of time, though, with the need for an “awakening” game, the way “Kanon” awoke the industry that the gamers would be more responsive to games appealing to their mind and feelings, rather than the lower part of their body. Now, the ren’ai gamers exist and are a good part of the market; all you’d need is to persuade them twincest games are more than just yarugees.
IMO, when flaming is always a waste of time, politely disserting about a matter never is, for to properly dissert, one needs to order his thoughts and expose them clearly, therefore to put himself and his ideas into question, which is always a good thing. In other words, by exposing your points, you make yourself understand them better. Also, in a public forum, people other than the ones disserting read the discourse and can get something from it. At last, it’s always more interesting than the usual threads we have here, when staying in topic!
[ 10-30-2007, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol ]
Not sure if anyone has noticed, but it looks like we’re finally getting another game with twins in the near future It’s called Cosplay Academy, and it says in the game description that Shana and Yuuki are twins.
Perhaps, but more likely that nature just gets bigger and uglier. We create medicines, nature evolves to become resistant and immune, we destroy habitats for our own use, nature responds by a chance in the ecosystem that rarely benifits humans, etc. We only have the illusion of mastery.
Ah… but then that would mean Nature is now merely reactive to us - that we lead with the chain. It’s a tremendous difference from the times when Nature lead us around. Yes, we have made errors in our quest to dominate the world around us… yet we are still continuing forward at an even faster pace. The longer Nature takes to destroy us, the less likely Nature will have the means to destroy us.