quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
As I with your MJ reviews [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Though I don't think there's been any new MJ releases since Lime-iro MJ.
Errr, actually there were at least two Doujinsoft-Mahjonng-games (Knock Out and Black Russian) and G-Taste-Mahjonng.
Also, there is Taisen Hot Gimmick, but the graphics in this game look too close to RL for my taste.
The same goes of course for the RL-remake of Hitozuma-Mahjonng 2.
quote:
Originally posted by Nandemonai:
I'd say your reviews are more useful than sarcastic, unserious reviews ever could be.
Nonetheless, they are officially supported, sponsored and even supplied with free samples in order to rip them apart.
quote:
Originally posted by Interzone:
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this statement is some sort of temper tantrum and can't quite work out why...?Since when has Something Awful impacted on reviews anyone else wishes to write ?
First of all, you are probably right about the tantrum.
Actually, it's not Something Awful that I blame here, though.
As things now look, I simply got the feeling that all the work that I put into writing my reviews, as well as the work that bokmeow-san had in correcting them has now become a fight against windmills. And after realizing this, I had to put down my reviewer's pen for good.
This posting is too long to give a detailed reply [hey, I’m no Kumiko!], but I wanted to address a few points where I think the author has missed the mark.
quote:I don’t think I’d say it takes courage. Insensitivity perhaps, but then it’s all a matter of taste.
Originally posted by Y2J:
I understand a lot of people won’t like games like Virgin Roster, I don’t know how bad it is as I haven’t received mine yet, and understand that few would have the courage to actually they like this sort of thing.
quote:I agree. If the games are selling, even if it’s only because people are buying them for the wrong reasons, they will continue to be made and sold. The question, rather is this the way I want to see the game companies spend their limited resources? My answer to that is no, and I won’t encourage them to continue in that direction.
If they’re selling well and making them money and there is a demand for them, they have a right to sell them.
quote:Whoa! Suddenly you made the leap from producing rape-oriented games to those with much more light-hearted, romantic themes. No one is talking about disallowing rape games. If, as you say, there’s a market for them they will continue to be made and sold. I just don’t see the need to reinforce that trend.
If you disallowed all games with all this stuff, we’d never have gotten X Change 1 and 2, 3 sisters story, Tokimeki Check-in!, critical point, and even one of perigee’s favourites Crescendo.
quote:This is a total non sequitur [it does not follow fallacy]. If in fact rape games were not selling, more non-rape games would take their place. Game producers wouldn’t abandon the market just because one kind of title proved to be unpopular.
They’d either be banned or heavily cut so bad it wouldn’t make any sense.
quote:Who wants to start restricting and censoring? Certainly not I. There’s a big difference between calling for the support of things you like and trying to censor things you don’t like.
If you want to start restricting and censoring it, where would it end.
quote:If you think that’s my position, then you’re totally missing my point. I’m not for restricting any game types, just encouraging the ones I prefer. If the S&Mers want to save the rape game market, I leave it up to them. I’m certainly not going to spend money supporting products I find offensive[/i]. That is just plain silly.
I don’t like S&M, but I know a lot of people do, so I don’t campaign to have it stopped and restrict other people’s freedom to do so. For you to want to restrict mine or anyone else’s freedom because you don’t like these games is offensive to me.
quote:Thanks for your permission not to buy games I don’t like. I’m not trying to tell you or anyone else what not to buy. What I am saying is that if someone [not you] has an aversion to a certain genre, it’s not necessary to buy that sort of title. I’ve heard people try to rationalize it by saying “they’re just supporting the industry” and “without sales of these games” the producers would go out of business. That’s nonsense. PP and GC make money by selling all their games. It doesn’t matter to them whether the profit comes from one title or another. It matters to me as a consumer, which titles are being produced, however. The only way I have to influence that decision is to buy the things I want and not buy the things I don’t want. It’s the law of demand and supply.
You have the right not to like these games and the right not to buy these games, but you do not have the right to tell me that I cannot buy them and definitely cannot say that all consumers do and should only like certain types of Bishoujo games that you like.
quote:That last sentence really puzzles me. If they only did the kind you like they probably would not be able to afford to make the ones you do like. If they make the kind of games I like, I will continue buying them and they will have more money to continue making more of the games I like. Is that so hard to understand?
There are likely going to be people who will not buy Kana and those other long drawn out romantic ones you like yet will buy ones like Virgin Roster, and if they only did the kind you like they probably would not be able to afford to make the ones you do like.
quote:Hold it right there. Did I ever say people should buy 1000 copies of any game? No, I said they should buy 1 copy of a game they liked because it benefits the seller just as much as buying 1 copy of a game they don’t like. That is, if they believe it is necessary to keep throwing money at a company to ensure they stay in business. I don’t subscribe to that theory myself, but I was offering an alternative strategy to those who have been talked into believing that buying a copy of Shukketsubo helps achieve some higher goal. It just seems hypocritical to me to support something you dislike when you have an easy alternative. If PP released a game featuring bloody dismemberment of characters and cannibalism, would you then argue that we should all rush to the store to stock up on that particular title [or substitute your own repulsive genre]?
Saying people should instead buy more copies of Crescendo for themselves because you’d rather see more like that is just stupid. If I could I would buy 1000 copies of each game to keep the industry going and the games coming out at a faster rate, but for most people that’s not practical
quote:Guess what? I don’t buy that kind of game either. [This is called a ‘strawman fallacy’.]
What they do in some of these games may be morally repugnant, but no more so than the majority of first person shooters where you are killing lots of people extremely graphically.
quote:Congratulations. If you are able to derive enjoyment from such fantasies, more power to you. I would do nothing to restrict your freedom. Just don’t tell me that I have no right to advocate the games I enjoy and discourage the spread of games I dislike. That’s a basic right, too.
Some of us are able to separate fantasy from reality and are able to enjoy playing these games doing stuff they’d never do in real life and would be disturbed by this in real life. I’d never do most of the stuff in these games in real life, and I doubt anyone who was not already extremely memntally disturbed would either.
quote:Where did you get the idea that I was trying to force my will on you? If you enjoy fantasizing about rape, then go buy more copies of Shukketsubo. The manufacturer can only respond to sales figures. So if you derive enjoyment from that kind of game, then obviously you should buy it and similar titles. If there are enough like-minded individuals as you, then the rape game market will prosper and flourish. Just don’t keep trying to persuade those who hate these games to support your segment of the market.
If you Americans value your freedom as much as you say you do, then do not try to force your will on me.
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
Thanks for your permission not to buy games I don't like. I'm not trying to tell you or anyone else what not to buy. What I am saying is that if someone [not you] has an aversion to a certain genre, it's not necessary to buy that sort of title. I've heard people try to rationalize it by saying "they're just supporting the industry" and "without sales of these games" the producers would go out of business. That's nonsense. PP and GC make money by selling all their games. It doesn't matter to them whether the profit comes from one title or another. It matters to me as a consumer, which titles are being produced, however. The only way I have to influence that decision is to buy the things I want and not buy the things I don't want. It's the law of demand and supply.
It's all true that they make money by sellign all of their games, but I can't agree with the statement that "it
doesn't amtter whenever the profit comes from one product or another". If a title is selling better than others, it's natural that other simialr titles would be released too. But at the same time, Peach Princess, for example, has this politcy to try and release games of all kinds, not just one kind of games, even if it means that they might not get as much profit from it as they would have if they only released one kind of titles. and I for one, are happy that they have this politcy, even if it means that they release titles I don't like personally and will never buy...
quote:
Originally posted by Spectator Beholder:
It's all true that they make money by sellign all of their games, but I can't agree with the statement that "it
doesn't amtter whenever the profit comes from one product or another". If a title is selling better than others, it's natural that other simialr titles would be released too. But at the same time, Peach Princess, for example, has this politcy to try and release games of all kinds, not just one kind of games, even if it means that they might not get as much profit from it as they would have if they only released one kind of titles. and I for one, are happy that they have this politcy, even if it means that they release titles I don't like personally and will never buy...
quote:
Originally posted by perigee:
If that's true, then I would say Peach Princess has a shaky business plan, especially for a small company trying to establish a foothold in a new market. A business that is run for profit has to sell the products that bring in the most money. They can't afford to release products that appeal to only a few consumers for the sake of intellectual freedom. If they were a large, well-established firm with deep pockets, they might be able to afford such idealistic endeavors. But I think that PP is in business first to survive. Let them go where they will make the most sales. If that's Shukketsubo type games, then so be it. I'm hoping the lighter games will dominate but am willing to live with the consequences of a free market.
That may be as you say, but if they were only aiming to make a profit, then the whole thing would more or less lose it's soul in my opinion, no matter how good the games were. And with too many games of the same kind, things would get boring sooner or later [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/wink.gif[/img].
Since I've got a fairly good idea of what Will and Crowd's games usually are like (given the fact that I've played some of them in japanese), I don't think the "light" games will dominate, but on the other hand, nor will the dark ones, because that most of the games that Will and Crowd makes are a light/dark mix so to speak...
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
Errr, actually there were at least two Doujinsoft-Mahjonng-games (Knock Out and Black Russian) and G-Taste-Mahjonng.
Also, there is Taisen Hot Gimmick, but the graphics in this game look too close to RL for my taste.The same goes of course for the RL-remake of Hitozuma-Mahjonng 2.
I'm not too crazy about doujin MJ games after buying the OMG MJ, not that there's anything wrong with the game but I can't help get feel there's something missing from games like Limero MJ or datsui jan2. Wierd couldn't find g-taste MJ when I first looked for it a couple months ago at Himeya, only found the ps2 g-taste game and figured there wasn't a pc version.
Hmm..so Hitozuma-Mahjonng 2 usues real people? Well guess I'm going to have to check himeya again to see if they have g-taste MJ for the PC.
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
As things now look, I simply got the feeling that all the work that I put into writing my reviews, as well as the work that bokmeow-san had in correcting them has now become a fight against windmills. And after realizing this, I had to put down my reviewer's pen for good.
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
As things now look, I simply got the feeling that all the work that I put into writing my reviews, as well as the work that bokmeow-san had in correcting them has now become a fight against windmills. And after realizing this, I had to put down my reviewer's pen for good.
I can understand your feelings. But I have, however, found your reviews well-written, helpful and a helluva lot more accurate than Something Awful. And anyone serious about bishojo games would appriciate that effort.
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
Hmm..so Hitozuma-Mahjonng 2 usues real people?
No. The original Hitozuma-Mahjonng2 didn't use real people. But I came across a remake of it that used real-people photographs instead of the drawings. But I can't recall where that was...
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
Well guess I'm going to have to check himeya again to see if they have g-taste MJ for the PC.
At least, that's where I got my copy of it.
The maker is called Winc and it is in the Adult-section.
However, I have to tell you about this title a few things:
Upside:
- It features 16 different G-Taste-girls as opponents
- for every girl, there are 6 oversized (5 screens high) scrollable CGs to get
Downside:
- As far as I have currently played, it only features one-on-one Mahjonng-duels
- The engine cheats a lot and makes no efforts to conceal it (even worse than i n Yakin Jyanto)
- The "story mode" doesn't really deserve to be called that way.
- You get the first three CGs of each girl very easily in the story-mode by beating her once for each CG once. But for the fourth, fifth and sixth CG, you have to beat her 6 times for each CG in the G-Taste100-Mode: 5 times for the five screen5 and the sixth time for adding the entire image to the gallery
Actually, I can only recommend this game if you like G-Taste and their style of drawings. I think that even the OMG-Mahjonng was more fun to play, even though it still seems impossible to me to beat Hild... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/eek.gif[/img]
quote:
Originally posted by wanfu2k1:
Donnno wh,y since if you post your reviews here you know that the people reading them are serious about bishoujo games, if a bit wierd [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]
Don't get me wrong!
I know pretty well that most regulars here appreciate my reviews.
Striking examples are:
- Nandemonai already expressed his appecriation a few posts above (EDT: The same goes for Interzone's post, 2 posts up from here)
- ladyphoenix-sama asked me to do exclusivce reviews for her website
- bokmeow went through all the trouble to improve my writings in several iterations
- olf asked me to write a review for a particular (japanese) game for the ren'ai-newsgroup
- last but not least our mahjonng-discussions
It's just that I don't like to be used for cleaning up the mess that "Something Awful" creates with official support without even being asked to do it beforehand.
... and exactly that is what I read between the lines when Peter gives them official support while he asks the people around here to write bishoujo-game-reviews for j-mate at the same time. That's where I have to draw the line and quit my voluntary writing support.
[This message has been edited by Unicorn (edited 01-07-2004).]
Well, I’m sorry to hear that Unicorn-san, but I respect your decision.
quote:
Originally posted by Unicorn:
Actually, I can only recommend this game if you like G-Taste and their style of drawings. I think that even the OMG-Mahjonng was more fun to play, even though it still seems impossible to me to beat Hild... [img]http://princess.cybrmall.net/ubb/eek.gif[/img]
Well to put this thread back on topic I just got virgin roster yesterday and played maybe 30 mins of it before I went to sleep. And I can already tell I’m not going to like the main character. Geeze what a dirtbag. At least with Tsuki the main guy was trying to fight his darkside this guy looks like he likes doing what he’s doing.
Heh… the people who fight the hardest against the moral standing of anything are the ones who fear it because they themselves enjoy it or are scared they will…
just something to think about…
haha…
If moral is the problem… read Nietzsche
Moral is a double-edged blade and if people were so moral, why would we need hentai games?
Kana is not a moral game for example.
------------------
…::|The end justifies the means|::… ~by Niccolo Machiavelli~
If I can add some comments about Y2J’s post:
I think Y2J is doing something I hear a lot of people doing whenever someone else passes an evaluative judgment (especially a negative one,) on some art-related product. They leap to the assumption that criticism - any criticism - somehow implies an advocacy of censorship, “bans” and the like.
This is false of course, a non sequitur.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I ordered “Virgin Roster” without realizing what I was getting. The synopsis I read indicated that the player character would be “hunting” women but nothing indicated that he would be anything worse than a good-natured scammer as in the main character of “Tokimeki Check-In!” Imagine my shock then to realize what VR is really about.
I hate pretty much everything about the game’s conception, and I fully support a boycott of it (more on that later,) but by what stretch of logic can that be misconstrued as a demand for censorship?
First, an important fact: Censorship relates only to government action, i.e., a law is passed forbidding certain literature or art, with fines and/or jail terms imposed forcibly for violations.
Censorship does not refer in any way to the actions of private individuals or groups. If a private school removes a book from its library for whatever reason, it’s not censorship - the school’s owners have the inalienable right to establish the rules for their own property, and people are free to get the book elsewhere. Similarly, if thousands of B-Gamers boycott VR on the grounds that it’s a repulsive title that they don’t necessarily want to see more of, it’s not only not censorship, it’s an indispensible tool for communicating feedback to the game’s creators.
So yes, I think “Virgin Roster” is a disgusting game and should be boycotted (those who’ve already ordered it will soon find out why, and condolences on the unfortunate loss of your 50 bucks,) but at the same time, the right of people to produce this stuff and buy it - regardless of how evil it is - must be defended. I’m a big fan of the classic Voltaire line: “I disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend, to the death, your right to say it.” Or draw it, or write it, or animate it, etc.
The key distinction is in the choice to purchase or not purchase. Boycotting VR is not censoring VR. And boycotting a single title of a game manufacturer is not going to bankrupt that manufacturer, it will do exactly what a boycott is supposed to do: use the demand side of the market’s supply/demand mechanism to discourage the future production of objectively contemptible products, and conversely encourage the production of better titles.
Ok, down from the soapbox.
If anyone is wondering, yes, I’ve written a full review of “Virgin Roster,” which I’ve submitted to the J-Mate website for posting in their Hentai games review area. [see http://www.jmate.com ]
I’d like to post it here as well since everybody here is a B-Gamer, but at 2100 words it’s a bit chunky.
It’s definitely a negative review, but people who actually like VR (if any,) are free to write a positive one. I think any review, positive or negative, is valuable information for people trying to decide whether or not to buy a title.
Questions:
Does the posting form accept a message that long?
Would it clog the thread, hairball-fashion?
Should I post it here, or start a dedicated thread for it?
Suggestions, anyone? Moderator?
Ok, since the J-Mate site hasn’t posted the review (it doesn’t look like there’s been any activity on that site for a few months, so it may take them awhile,) I think I’ll just post the VR review in its own thread and let the moderator decide whether or not it’s too long…
N.B.: I’ll post it under the “Game Reviews” discussion header, not this one, so look for it there.
[This message has been edited by ZaphodB.Goode (edited 01-22-2004).]
It’s nice to hear another voice of reason in a matter of basic economics. Your review of that vile antibishoujo game, Shukketsubo, was also right on target. But the forum where you posted it is generally reserved for non-localized Japanese games. I’m afraid your remarks are unlikely to be published by jmates.com since that’s basically a promotional site for jlist.com which unabashedly advertises and markets the title. You might consider submitting it to gamefaqs, a widely-read review site without the conflict of interests.
Another suggestion I’d like to make is to post your feedback directly to G-Collections bulletin board. G-Collection reps actually read and respond to comments made there. Be forewarned, however, you’re likely to encounter the vociferous Dave Endresak, prime advocate of this ludicrous buy-every-title-or-the-industry-will-perish theory.
[This message has been edited by perigee (edited 01-22-2004).]